Putting the AT in N at lights

[Trav]

I have heard of this but not in normal driving.
Track use and other high speed activities then applying brake pressure on the red hot rotor while stationary maybe, but not around town or normal stops from 50 mph.

I would think pad quality has a lot to do with it also. No matter, it still does not cause a "flat spot" on the rotor.
I replace a warped rotor when its warped using a dial indicator.

 

[SteveSRT8]

I have a feeling you already know, but I'm talking specifically about pad deposits that are on a certain spot or spots around the rotor caused by clamping down on a hot rotor at a stop.

These mimic the feel of a warped rotor and fool many folks.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I have a feeling you already know, but I'm talking specifically about pad deposits that are on a certain spot or spots around the rotor caused by clamping down on a hot rotor at a stop.

These mimic the feel of a warped rotor and fool many folks.


Hi Steve- I think the three of us are on the same page here. What Trav is saying [I'm pretty sure} is holding the brake petal at a light is not going to warp, distort, or cause a "flat spot" on the rotor.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Spazdog

But I don't live in constant fear either.


No fear here. I just use common sense, and follow the law. Tail lights are on when stopped in traffic.


I'm going to need a citation of this law. Not equipment, but operation. My state at least does not have anything about stopped cars (in traffic) using brakes.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I have a feeling you already know, but I'm talking specifically about pad deposits that are on a certain spot or spots around the rotor caused by clamping down on a hot rotor at a stop.

These mimic the feel of a warped rotor and fool many folks.


Hi Steve- I think the three of us are on the same page here. What Trav is saying [I'm pretty sure} is holding the brake petal at a light is not going to warp, distort, or cause a "flat spot" on the rotor.


Agreed. You can stomp the pedal as hard as you want without any damage to the rotor from the pressure.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Spazdog

But I don't live in constant fear either.


No fear here. I just use common sense, and follow the law. Tail lights are on when stopped in traffic.


I'm going to need a citation of this law. Not equipment, but operation. My state at least does not have anything about stopped cars (in traffic) using brakes.


Here's what I said higher up in this thread: "IIRC in some states if you are stopped in traffic, brake lights must be illuminated. That's the law in many states." Perhaps I should have used the words some states instead of many states, or my state? Maybe its different in your state, I'm sure traffic and accidents are less.

The fact still remains brake lights on when you're stopped in traffic is safer than no brake lights, brakes applied when stopped is safer than not having them applied. [Maybe someone with some time to kill can check insurance stats.] To each his own, I've survived w/o incident since the mid 70's following the above, I plan on continuing. I certainly won't warp my rotors, or put flat spots on them holding my foot on the brake when stopped at a light.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
If you don't see someone coming up behind you, perhaps you should hang up your cell phone and pay attention. Or ride the bus.


Yea right I've been driving since the mid 70's and was never in an accident, tell someone else. I don't use a cell when driving either. Hopefully I'm never in front of you at a light when you're in neutral off the brake. You'd be the hazard, to me.


So there I was, driving in heavy traffic in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida in my rental car with a couple of co-workers. We were going about 50 mph, when all of a sudden there was a traffic backup, and I had to execute a max-effort emergency stop, coming to rest about 1-2 feet behind the car in front. Then I looked in the rear-view mirror and saw a female driving a Jeep Cherokee, yacking on her cell-phone. She saw the tie-up about a second too late, slammed on her brakes, locking up her wheels and sliding into my car. Even though I still had the brakes applied full-on, she pushed me into the car ahead.

True story. If you're going to get rear-ended, it's just a matter of luck whether or not you're going to hit the car ahead. And besides in my original note, I said to PAY ATTENTION to cars coming up behind you and keep your brakes applied. As you can see, I have had some experience in this area.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
If you don't see someone coming up behind you, perhaps you should hang up your cell phone and pay attention. Or ride the bus.


Yea right I've been driving since the mid 70's and was never in an accident, tell someone else. I don't use a cell when driving either. Hopefully I'm never in front of you at a light when you're in neutral off the brake. You'd be the hazard, to me.


So there I was, driving in heavy traffic in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida in my rental car with a couple of co-workers. We were going about 50 mph, when all of a sudden there was a traffic backup, and I had to execute a max-effort emergency stop, coming to rest about 1-2 feet behind the car in front. Then I looked in the rear-view mirror and saw a female driving a Jeep Cherokee, yacking on her cell-phone. She saw the tie-up about a second too late, slammed on her brakes, locking up her wheels and sliding into my car. Even though I still had the brakes applied full-on, she pushed me into the car ahead.

True story. If you're going to get rear-ended, it's just a matter of luck whether or not you're going to hit the car ahead. And besides in my original note, I said to PAY ATTENTION to cars coming up behind you and keep your brakes applied. As you can see, I have had some experience in this area.


You were going 50 mph and didn't see the traffic backing up?

Now lets say you were stopped 10-20 feet behind someone, you're in Neutral, foot off the brakes chatting with your friends and she slammed you, how to you think you would have fared?

I've witnessed an accident that happened exactly like what I said above, only the girl was texting [people caught doing that should go to jail, but that's another topic]. The stopped car had brake lights on, and did not hit the car in front of him. Had he been in Neutral foot off brakes he would have surely hit the car in front of him. He told the police he didn't see her, and if he did it wouldn't have mattered, he had nowhere to go. His brakes were already on.

 

[KrisZ]

I also think that brakes should be applied at stop lights, especially if you're the first in line. Knowing that the party, that rear ended you and pushed you into the oncoming traffic, is at fault will be of little consolation if you’re crippled or dead.

For people afraid of leaving pad deposits on hot rotor, just stop few feet shorter and let the car move slightly forward every once in a while.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I also think that brakes should be applied at stop lights, especially if you're the first in line. Knowing that the party, that rear ended you and pushed you into the oncoming traffic, is at fault will be of little consolation if you’re crippled or dead.

For people afraid of leaving pad deposits on hot rotor, just stop few feet shorter and let the car move slightly forward every once in a while.



Good point! First car at the light, no brakes on in neutral gets launched into the intersection, or oncoming traffic, not good! Yea if you have cat like reflexes and see it coming you can apply the brakes, sometimes.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
If you don't see someone coming up behind you, perhaps you should hang up your cell phone and pay attention. Or ride the bus.


Yea right I've been driving since the mid 70's and was never in an accident, tell someone else. I don't use a cell when driving either. Hopefully I'm never in front of you at a light when you're in neutral off the brake. You'd be the hazard, to me.


So there I was, driving in heavy traffic in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida in my rental car with a couple of co-workers. We were going about 50 mph, when all of a sudden there was a traffic backup, and I had to execute a max-effort emergency stop, coming to rest about 1-2 feet behind the car in front. Then I looked in the rear-view mirror and saw a female driving a Jeep Cherokee, yacking on her cell-phone. She saw the tie-up about a second too late, slammed on her brakes, locking up her wheels and sliding into my car. Even though I still had the brakes applied full-on, she pushed me into the car ahead.

True story. If you're going to get rear-ended, it's just a matter of luck whether or not you're going to hit the car ahead. And besides in my original note, I said to PAY ATTENTION to cars coming up behind you and keep your brakes applied. As you can see, I have had some experience in this area.


You were going 50 mph and didn't see the traffic backing up?

Now lets say you were stopped 10-20 feet behind someone, you're in Neutral, foot off the brakes chatting with your friends and she slammed you, how to you think you would have fared?

I've witnessed an accident that happened exactly like what I said above, only the girl was texting [people caught doing that should go to jail, but that's another topic]. The stopped car had brake lights on, and did not hit the car in front of him. Had he been in Neutral foot off brakes he would have surely hit the car in front of him. He told the police he didn't see her, and if he did it wouldn't have mattered, he had nowhere to go. His brakes were already on.


Yes, I saw the traffic backing up. That was why I applied the brakes. It was one of those situations where somebody panic-stopped 10-15 cars ahead, and everybody behind accordioned. I am relating the situation to you as it happened and will not argue "What-If's".

But since you're not taking my point about paying attention to the rearview mirror and keeping the brakes applied as long as traffic is moving behind you, I will now give up.

 

[Trav]

Yes maybe i didn't understand what he meant by flat spot. I understood him to mean you could in some way damage the rotor from applying pressure to the caliper when stopped.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman


But since you're not taking my point about paying attention to the rearview mirror and keeping the brakes applied as long as traffic is moving behind you, I will now give up.


You can pay attention to the RV mirror, and in some instances there is nothing you can do, or not have ample time to react to what you saw. Having the brakes on can help more than hurt. Besides weren't were talking about being stopped in N with no brakes on?

 

[eljefino]

As I have a stick shift and sit in neutral to save wear on the throwout bearing, I only coincidentally keep my foot off the brake to save the rotors. But, I'm bored at red lights!!! So yeah I keep my eye on the rearview mirror and cross traffic. When I see a car coming up behind me I apply the brake for about five seconds when I know I'm in their field of view. Figure the action of lights coming on draws more attention than their static presence. I then release the pedal when I know they're stopping.

If I saw someone coming up behind me at 40+ MPH and know they're about to cream me, I don't know how I'd react. Try flashing the brake lights rapidly. The collision is going to hurt whether or not my wheels are going to skid post-impact. I might try yanking the wheel to the right and driving over a curb to avoid it, if possible, but then again that could be the rear-ender-driver's last out. If I can get even a couple MPH forward that will lessen the closing speed and help the accident.

 

[bigmike]

I've had a driver of a mini van on cell phone come up behind me and never touch the brakes while I was sitting stopped on an interstate off ramp. I was driving a small pickup truck w/ manual transmission, had it in neutral with my foot on the brake. The person got close enough for me to see them and I knew they were not going to stop in time. I had just enough time to slip it in first, gun the engine, and move into the next lane when the most terrific sounding wreck happened. Instead of them slamming into me, they hit the car in front and it ended up involving several vehicles.

I was missed entirely. For the record, I didn't choose the shoulder of the road (emergency lane), because I thought the mini van might go that direction so I chose the slow lane (left of the off ramp) instead.

I suggest anyone the advice of keeping enough room in front of you to perform such maneuvers if you have time. It's easier to swerve than brake, for instance.

 

[eljefino]

^ I remember hearing you should see the bottoms of the tires of the car in front of you over your hood. This will give you time to go to full steering lock and maneuver around them. Also handy if they just stall.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Yes, you are supposed to stop and be able to see the next car's rear tires over your hood. If you don't see them, you are too close to that vehicle.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: bigmike
I've had a driver of a mini van on cell phone come up behind me and never touch the brakes while I was sitting stopped on an interstate off ramp. I was driving a small pickup truck w/ manual transmission, had it in neutral with my foot on the brake. The person got close enough for me to see them and I knew they were not going to stop in time. I had just enough time to slip it in first, gun the engine, and move into the next lane when the most terrific sounding wreck happened. Instead of them slamming into me, they hit the car in front and it ended up involving several vehicles.

I was missed entirely. For the record, I didn't choose the shoulder of the road (emergency lane), because I thought the mini van might go that direction so I chose the slow lane (left of the off ramp) instead.

I suggest anyone the advice of keeping enough room in front of you to perform such maneuvers if you have time. It's easier to swerve than brake, for instance.


Good move! Defensive driving is how most good drivers were taught how to drive. You had enough room and time to make the maneuver.

Now for the sake of argument and for those who keep their foot off the brake and the car in Neutral. Lets say you're stopped at a busy intersection, you are the first car at the light, on the line, a car pulls up close behind you, 5 feet away. That car gets rear ended and pushed into you, your foot is off the brake "preserving rotors", and in Neutral "saving the drive train", you might just get pushed into a bad situation. That's just another way of trying to bring up my point. You'd be getting shoved a lot less if you have the brakes on. Now if that car that hits you was in Neutral with his/her foot off the brake you'd be hit even harder.

BTW, I'm not singling you out since we both drive stick the same way. I drive stick, and sit at lights in Neutral, but as you did in your near miss I keep my foot on the brake.

 

[440Magnum]

Holy wars over nothing, Batman.

FWIW, I tend to slip the '69 Coronet R/T into neutral at lights. Its got a mildly rumpy cam, does NOT have a loose high-stall torque convertor, and I get tired of it inching forward against the brakes every time the idle speed spikes up a little. It also keeps the trans fluid temperatures down compared to sitting there shearing fluid against 7.2 liters worth of restrained torque

All the other cars- nah. Just leave em in gear.

In all cases, I leave my foot on the darn brake... what are you THINKING if you put it in neutral so you can take your foot off the brake?!?

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: 45ACP
Ok... what about putting it in "D" when it is still going "R" with NO application of the brakes, rather accelerator.

She does that, too.



If its just slowly rolling backward at walking speed, switching gears, and THEN pressing the accelerator... I've been doing that for 30 years and haven't broken a transmission yet. Its different if she guns the accelerator AS its shifting. What will tell you if harm is being done is whether or not you feel any difference in shudder between what she's doing and the feel you get just shifting into gear with it stopped.

Think of it this way: shifting from N or P to D with the car stopped means that the differential RPM between the input shaft and the first driven element goes from ~700 RPM to 0 RPM as the transmission engages. If the car is rolling gently backward at walking speed and you shift to "D," then the differential speed between elements goes from ~750 RPM (the input shaft spinning 700, the first driven element lazily rolling backward at 50) to 0 RPM. No big frickin' difference.