Purolator engineer on bypass valve location FWIW

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Thanks guys. I will have to check out the PF400 and the PF2 ACs next time I am at an auto parts store (which is 3 to 4 times a week these oil clearance days
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). If it looks like a fitter, I will go into the specs to verify. Now Motorcraft if fine, but its nice to know some good alternatives.

And, oh yeah, thanks TC for the insight on the popper valve (or was it slammer, or smacker, or whatever), anyway I can see where the dome end valve has several potential problems. Too bad as I really like the Fleetguard filters, but alas they do not make the threaded end bypass.
 
Personally, I don't really think it makes a difference which end of the filter the bypass is on. Frankly, I care more about the design of the bypass.

I've seen several mentions that Wix/Napa/Carquest filters have the bypass on the threaded end. I know from first hand experience they are not all that way, and even in an application you may find surprising.

The Wix 51327 is the Wix part number (IIRC!) for the Motorcraft FL-820s, one of the filters with the threaded end bypass from Ford. Not one of the Wix/Napa/Carquest filters I've used in that application has a threaded end bypass. They are all the closed end, and use a design with a coil spring that I actually like!

The filter for my '88 Jeep Cherokee does have a threaded end bypass in the Wix and clones, but that likely has more to do with the long boss on the oil filter adaptor not working well with the coil spring setup I found on my filters for my '99 F150.
 
I have explained this before in this forum earlier but here we go again:

From a Wix technical/sales bulletin:
"Upfront relief valve. Prevents entrained contaminants from filter media from being carried by the oil washing to the engine when the filter plugs."

This is 100% correct.

Now put that in context with the orientation of the filter.

Remember there are engines out there other than those made in the USA and applications ..fork lifts, for example ..where filters are not mounted under the motor.

So when you get a horiziontal mount to inverted mount and you shut the motor off what happens?
The oil stays in the filter with the help of the anti-drain valve ( check valve to filter engineeers). It is not needed in filters that hang under the engine.

So where is the "heavier" pieces of contaminant that the filter media prevents from going down stream or imbedded in the media? It is inside the filter canister on the dirty side of the element..isn't it? What's inside the filter canister when you cut it open in that oil sludge?

Now..due to gravity..where do you think the heavier contaminat settles? Away from the "bottom" of the can..
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No it settles at the lowest point. Relation of filter orientation again?

So when the filter is horizontally mounted to inverted and you have an engine end by-pass valve.....where will the incoming oil wash the heavier contaminant downstream to when the by-pass valve opens immediately due to no pressure on the clean side?

You're right it makes no difference where the by-pass valve is located.
 
Posted above
So when the filter is horizontally mounted to inverted and you have an engine end by-pass valve.....where will the incoming oil wash the heavier contaminant downstream to when the by-pass valve opens immediately due to no pressure on the clean side?

Having trouble understanding
 
quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
I have explained this before in this forum earlier but here we go again...
Click to expand...
lol.gif


Apparently you're the Anti-Einstein. He could take a abstract and complex topic and describe it so that the laymen could grasp the concepts. You on the other hand....well, let me recommend that you stay away from teaching anything technical as a second career.

lol.gif
 
A bypass is intended by definition to "bypass" or "avoid" the filter, preferably by not even going into the filter in the first place. The best way to do that is to make a detour just before the filter. If the filter bypass is located in the closed end of the filter, the oil still has to go through the dirtiest area of the filter and finally through that bypass and then out the filter and back in to the engine. I would call that a "path of least resistance", or a pressure relief, but not a bypass, technically.
I would make a comparison to a bypass around a big city, rather than using a straight shot, high volume path through the middle of it.
I definitely agree however with the significance of the physical orientation of that filter and it's relation to where the "dirtiest" oil is lurking...

I understand that when the filter is bypassing, that only a portion of the flow is actually going through the bypass, the rest is still going through the media (at least under normal conditions---maybe not the ones that LUBEOWNER has seen possibly
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)

A closed end bypass valve in my opinion ( I know, that and a quarter will maybe buy a cup of coffee
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) is more a mechanism to prevent a filter from self destructing do to a high psid condition than it is a flow maintainer to the engine. Yes it will maintain flow, but it comes with a higher price than if that bypass was located before (or at the threaded end of) the filter.

Guys, it's Saturday night!
cheers.gif

Rando
 
Good points, ZR2RANDO.

FILTER GUY: "It (anti-drainback valve) is not needed in filters that hang under the engine."
I'd suggest that if an ADBV not only helps filters retain oil, but also intentionally or inadverdently retains the "column of oil" in the galleries above the filter, then having an ADBV in a holes-up filter would be advantageous, even if not truly necessary.

"Remember there are engines out there other than those made in the USA and applications ..fork lifts, for example ..where filters are not mounted under the motor."
True, but for every forklift, there's a zillion cars, and most of them have holes-up or horizontal filters. I'm sure there's a number of other car applications, but the only holes-down filters I'm familiar with are in the early Mazda RX-7s.

With the vast number of holes-up applications, debris will sink down to the dome and then get swept directly into the engine once dome-end bypass occurs. I'll happily prefer the Wix and Motorcraft designs -- in which debris sinks to the end of the filter farthest away from the bypass valve -- having never owned a holes-down mounted filter in my dozen or so rides.

[ March 12, 2005, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: TC ]
 
The filter on my Nissan truck is at about a 10 o'clock position with the holes down. There is a stem that protrudes maybe two thirds to halfway into the filter that takes the oil back into the motor, (helps maintain some oil in the filter if the adbv works). I won't use a filter with the bypass on the dome end in any application regardless of filter orientation (The Nissan does use a filter with a bypass). I use a Motorcraft FL300 for that truck (bypass is on threaded end). The oil still comes in the same holes, and would carry any/some sediment with it to a bypass located in the dome end...theoretically the thread end bypass should bypass any sediment on the outside area of that filter...kind of shortcut to the middle so-to-speak...hopefully anyway.
Filter with a bypass inside is about the only thing I DON'T like about that truck...
wink.gif
 
quote:
Originally posted by 427Z06:

quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
I have explained this before in this forum earlier but here we go again...
Click to expand...
lol.gif


Apparently you're the Anti-Einstein. He could take a abstract and complex topic and describe it so that the laymen could grasp the concepts. You on the other hand....well, let me recommend that you stay away from teaching anything technical as a second career.

lol.gif

Click to expand...
Thank you..

Of course that's exactly what I did for about 6-7 years. Including doing seminars and training some Oil engineers ( Mobil and Valvoline) and for OEM engineers. Not to mention training the salesmen and countless distributor/fleet training.

But apparently you've got the knowledge so I bow to your superior....well what ever it is.
 
This reminds me of the "Itchy and Scratchy" theme song on the Simpsons: "Fight fight fight, fight fight fight, Theeee Itchy and Scratchy Shooooow!"
smile.gif


[ March 14, 2005, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: TC ]
 
quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:

The oil stays in the filter with the help of the anti-drain valve ( check valve to filter engineeers). It is not needed in filters that hang under the engine.
Click to expand...
I disagree with this. The ADBV will still help hold oil in the passages above the filter. Almost all filters have ADBV's and very few are mounted upside down. Not as important maybe, but not needed at all, I doubt it. Ford even goes as far as putting a silicone ADBV on most of their filters even though they are usually mounted on their side or at an angle.

-T
 
quote:
Originally posted by T-Keith:
Ford even goes as far as putting a silicone ADBV on most of their filters even though they are usually mounted on their side or at an angle.
Click to expand...
Are there Ford filters other than the FL-400S and the FL-820S that have a silicone ADBV? The FL-1A does not. (The S in those part numbers indicates that it has a silicone anti-drainback valve. Apparently, they did not always have one. Those versions were the FL-400 and the FL-820).
 
quote:
Originally posted by T-Keith:

quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:

The oil stays in the filter with the help of the anti-drain valve ( check valve to filter engineeers). It is not needed in filters that hang under the engine.
Click to expand...
I disagree with this. The ADBV will still help hold oil in the passages above the filter. Almost all filters have ADBV's and very few are mounted upside down. Not as important maybe, but not needed at all, I doubt it. Ford even goes as far as putting a silicone ADBV on most of their filters even though they are usually mounted on their side or at an angle.

-T
Click to expand...
I think you're confusing two issue's.

One is that the anti-drain is needed for all engines that have a horizontal to inverted mount.
Try taking a filter with no anti-drain that hangs under the engine when you change it and hold it at a horizontal position for some time. You'll have an oily mess as the oil drains out.
Oil will seek it's own level. On a horizontal mount that will end up being at the bottom of the level of the outlet hole. Inverted, no explaination necessary...
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When it comes to using a filter with an anti-drain where in the mounting location it is hung under the engine...why add the cost of an anti-drain to this application when one isn't necessary? OEM engineers don't require it.

But I guess if you thought long enough you'd come up with the reasoning.

The reason is that dealers would go to meetings and complain that they essentialy had two filters with the exact same ( or very similar)measurements and the only difference was the anti-drain. So to them it was duplicate stock and a waste of inventory space. So they asked..argued.. that it would be better to have one part number for both applications. Hence the OEM relented and went to one part number. Not because of any enginering directive but because of inventory space.

So the fact that a filter with an anti-drain
is used where it isn't necessary for the function it performs has nothing to do with keeping oil from coming into the filter at engine shut down. That oil will return to the oil pan from inside the engine not seep into a filter already full of oil when hung under the engine. So the antidrain doesn't keep oil out of the filter at shut down. It is designed to keep oil in where the mounting location dictates.
 
I think you totally misunderstood me. I'm saying an ADBV can help keep oil in the passages above the filter, not in the filter.

-T
 
quote:
Originally posted by T-Keith:
I'm saying an ADBV can help keep oil in the passages above the filter, not in the filter
Click to expand...
It keeps enough oil in the passages to make a fine mess when I remove the filter on my '96 Contour V6
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quote:
I think you totally misunderstood me. I'm saying an ADBV can help keep oil in the passages above the filter, not in the filter.
Click to expand...
I'd agree with you there. Look at the PF1218 vs. PF35. I'm pretty sure these are mostly used on "vertical" applcations (Chevy v8s and inline sixes**). Why add an anti-drainback valve? Both filters were in production for a number of years, before the PF35 was cancelled. Why did GM add the ADBV?

** Note: The inline six filter mount is not vertical, but I believe this engine was gone before the PF1218 with ADBV was introduced.
 
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