Pure One - Bosch filters -- Thin gaskets?

[JGmazda]

For those of you that have confirmed my observation - Thank you!

I never meant to turn this into a "It's still a great filter and here's why..." thread. I was simply stating the gaskets are much "thinner" than the competitors. This alone has nothing to do with filtration.

No doubt about it, The Pure One/Bosch filters do a wonderful job.
Having said that... So far, the leaking has stopped on my Mazda.
But... The filter is pretty much making contact with the oil filter mount. It's not overtightened. And that's my point. It barely made contact with the gasket and before I could tighten it further, I felt contact.

Now... Different cars and filters will exacerbate the issue. Not every application and installation will result in a leaky filter. I will say it's only an issue if the filter continues to drip oil. Those filters mentioned in the above threads seem to have possible issues with known vehicles etc.

I'm keeping an eye on my car and will post back if things change.
I may switch back to the Napa Golds or Mobil 1 filters just to avoid taking chances. Either that or investigate a larger size filter where the canister exceeds the diameter of the base plate.

Otherwise... these filters are great. That's my only gripe. I didn't want this to turn into a "Thick vs. Thin" gasket thread.
Thanks again for your input.

 

[Sayjac]

Unfortunately, when it goes from the gasket may be thinner but doesn't or does leak, to Purolator filter are "average filters" with cheap adbv's, and why an OEM changed manufacturers, then the subject had changed. This is one of the same collection that was quick to blame as usual, the P1 on a recent thread, when it turns out it was a coolant leak at LIM gaskets that caused the iisue.

So it wasn't until the topic changed with unsubstantiated allgations that it became a "it's still great filter..." It wasn't quite as simple, as it rarely is, a simple gasket observation. So, adding some perspective and balance at some point, wasn't out of order here, IMO.

 

[Newtonville]

From my experience too tight is not better, even worse as the gasket isn't designed for that. Thicker gaskets are even worse for overtightening, bulging, smashing the gasket material ruins it's structure. I found the gaskets on Pure one plenty thick and never bottomed out. Maybe the base design has something to do with it.

 

[AuthorEditor]

I've often thought that it would be great if filter canisters had a crosshairs pattern on the bottom of the can numbered 1,2,3,4 or some other visual device to make it easy to tighten just the right amount. I really think that the slippery PTFE coating on the Pure One gasket along with the grippy can makes it too easy to over tighten--it just feels easier turning than other filters, so my gut reaction is to think it isn't on tight enough. I know I've over tightened a few P1s because of this. Never had a bottom-out can or a leak though.

 

[Soobs]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Can you provide a citing source/reference that specifically states that be the reason why Subie switched to the cheaper to make Honeywell with fiber/cardboard endcaps?


Yes, here's the particular recall that affected my old Subaru.


Recall ID #595
Auto Recall Date: 06/08/1998
Vehicle Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING:ENGINE
Estimated Vehicles Affected: 20,306
SUBARU LEGACY Defect Summary:
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: PASSENGER VEHICLES, ALSO SERVICE PARTS SUPPLIED TO SUBARU DEALERS ARE INVOLVED (LOT NUMBERS F01 J21D2, F01 J30D2, F02 J09D1, F02 J09D2, AND F02 J20D1). THE PUROLATOR OIL FILTER CANS USED ON THESE VEHICLES CAN FRACTURE CAUSING A VAPORIZED OIL SPRAY AND SUBSEQUENT OIL LEAK.
Defect Consequence:
THIS VAPORIZED OIL SPRAY CAN RESULT IN OIL VAPOR IGNITION BY THE HOT EXHAUST SYSTEM RESULTING IN A POSSIBLE UNDERHOOD FIRE.
Remedy:
DEALERS WILL INSPECT AND REPLACE THESE ENGINE OIL FILTERS.
Notes: SUBARU OF AMERICA, INC.,

It's my understanding that the cans were fatiguing from touching the hot engine block due to out-of-spec oil filter gaskets. Cranked down metal on metal with a thin gasket seal is just a recipe for failure. Since Purolater did not build the filters to Subaru spec, they lost their contract.

After this recall, they replaced the Purolators with Tokyo Roki oil filters again, not Honeywell. The Honeywells didn't come out until late 2008. I've been using the Honeywells since they became the OEM. Not one problem with them, but several leaky experiences with the PL14612. I hear people have better luck with the 14460 model, but I've never tried it as it's not referenced to my engine and it has no ADBV.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
I've often thought that it would be great if filter canisters had a crosshairs pattern on the bottom of the can numbered 1,2,3,4 or some other visual device to make it easy to tighten just the right amount. I really think that the slippery PTFE coating on the Pure One gasket along with the grippy can makes it too easy to over tighten--it just feels easier turning than other filters, so my gut reaction is to think it isn't on tight enough. I know I've over tightened a few P1s because of this. Never had a bottom-out can or a leak though.


I put a dot on the end of the can with a Sharpie pen after the base makes first contact ... then tighten 3/4 more using the dot as a reference. Easy as pie ... works slick.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Newtonville
From my experience too tight is not better, even worse as the gasket isn't designed for that. Thicker gaskets are even worse for overtightening, bulging, smashing the gasket material ruins it's structure. I found the gaskets on Pure one plenty thick and never bottomed out. Maybe the base design has something to do with it.


It very well could be differences in the gasket groove in the base. If the gasket groove is made too deep, then that subtracts from the amount the gasket sticks up above the base. Maybe there are manufacturing differences in the gaskets and gasket grooves between lots of the same filter depending on what machines they were made on.

Maybe someone from Purolator is reading this thread and will take note of any possible design or manufacturing issues.

 

[Soobs]

Originally Posted By: Soobs

After this recall, they replaced the Purolators with Tokyo Roki oil filters again, not Honeywell. The Honeywells didn't come out until late 2008. I've been using the Honeywells since they became the OEM. Not one problem with them, but several leaky experiences with the PL14612. I hear people have better luck with the 14460 model, but I've never tried it as it's not referenced to my engine and it has no ADBV.


Hate replying to my own post, but I think it's important to note that this was one of two gasket issues I know about with Purolater and Subaru. In addition to the cans fracturing, they did have many problems with just the gaskets failing and seeping oil. I don't have citing info for this, but if you're that interested just call up any Subaru dealership and ask for an advisor or mechanic that's been around for a few years. They'll be happy to fill you in.

 

[Sayjac]

That's a citing of a recall, but nowhere do I read that Purolator didn't build the filters to Subaru specs that caused the recalls. I read speculation after said recall notice, but not statement saying that. But, it would be easier pin it on Purolator and switch supplier's, then own up to it.

Never seen any similar Motorcraft and Mopar recalls for Puro made Motorcraft/Mopar filters made to their specs. Wonder why?

Curious that they have since switched suppliers twice since. Price shopping a low price supplier?

If Purolator doesn't work for you or your Subaru, don't use it. I haven't had any similar experience, so I judge based on efficency specs, value, and my experience, which has been been excellent.

 

[AuthorEditor]

Don't know if this is the case, but didn't we have a lot of discussions on here a year or so back about unusual Subaru oil flow, pressure, and bypass requirements? Those particular engines may require special filter specs. not normally needed by most of us.

 

[Soobs]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
Don't know if this is the case, but didn't we have a lot of discussions on here a year or so back about unusual Subaru oil flow, pressure, and bypass requirements? Those particular engines may require special filter specs. not normally needed by most of us.


Yep. Subaru oil pumps run oil are very high volumes and pressures vs most other brands. I've always wondered if that was the case with the poor seals they were getting. Perhaps a high quality/thicker gasket is required to hold a seal with high pressures/volumes.

 

[Sayjac]

And AE could be on to something with filter location. If the filter is located as in the picture below, and that is the exhaust manifold that wraps around the filter, gasket thickness may be more critical on some Subaru's.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...p;#Post1842550

 

[Soobs]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
That's a citing of a recall, but nowhere do I read that Purolator didn't build the filters to Subaru specs that caused the recalls. I read speculation after said recall notice, but not statement saying that. But, it would be easier pin it on Purolator and switch supplier's, then own up to it.


So since I can't reproduce confidential documents from a car manufacturer and oem supplier business agreement it's best to theorize that it was Subaru's fault? A big nasty plan to pin it on Purolater even though neither the previous or future OEM filters had any problems at all?

Now what if this had been a Champ or Honeywell filter? I know having negative experience with the brand in question is so taboo here and like talking trash about someones favorite sports team, but come on. Really?

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Never seen any similar Motorcraft and Mopar recalls for Puro made Motorcraft/Mopar filters made to their specs. Wonder why?


Probably because there is no comparison to be made here and you have no experience with the filter in question. Considering the tempatures, pressures and volumes of oil both respective vehicle brands generally handle- The Purolater Subaru OEM oil filters were not built anywhere near as well as a Purolater Motorcraft. Motorcraft are of a different design, thicker gaskets, and thicker cans. Same OEM supplies but, different engineering, different oil flow rates, different surround can tempatures, and different third-party parts suppliers for filter parts.

Originally Posted By: sayjac

Curious that they have since switched suppliers twice since. Price shopping a low price supplier?


So they should have stuck with Purolater and dealt with the high yield of shop-returns due to folks complaining of "an oil burning smell" or loss of oil due to fractured cans?

In regards to the H4 engines: Tokyo Roki was their original Made in Japan OEM and makes some of the best filters i've seen. Sometime in the 90's the North American division cut costs and switched to Purolater. When the Purolater issues became a widespread problem they fell back on Tokyo Roki (which is still their OEM everywhere outside of North America) while searching for another North American supplier. And yes, I'm sure the latest move to Honeywell (just like the original move to Purolater) was due to cost savings.

And i'm not really sure what you're eluding to here. Subaru is a quality brand. My last one went 450,000 miles with nothing more than preventative maintenance and a new alternator around 410,000 miles. They do just fine.

Originally Posted By: sayjac

If Purolator doesn't work for you or your Subaru, don't use it. I haven't had any similar experience, so I judge based on efficency specs, value, and my experience, which has been been excellent.


So your good experience with them is just fine at face value, but if someone has an issue you need documents and citings? I didn't just dream up this stuff one night. It's all pretty common knowledge to Subaru mechanics and industry buffs that have been paying attention or involved with the company. I've had good experience with Purolater too, just not with Subaru. I'm not discrediting your favorite brand. This is just something for folks that own Subarus may want to investigate if they're planning on using these filters.

 

[Soobs]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
And AE could be on to something with filter location. If the filter is located as in the picture below, and that is the exhaust manifold that wraps around the filter, gasket thickness may be more critical on some Subaru's.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...p;#Post1842550


This is one reason why not to use long filters on this application. They can get extra heat off the exhaust, fatiguing the metal of the can and additionally- possibly cooking the oil. And that can screw up the element, bypass, etc.. Just all sorts of fun times.

 

[Sayjac]

It's clear you got your axe to grind when you're nearly always there to chime in on with a negative comment and blame Purolator. Latest case in point the, LIM gasket thread blaming the P1 filter. Wrong! That was on GM too, not Subaru, wasn't it?. At least your anti Purolator bias is no longer under the guise of, I use(d) them but.........your not discrediting Purolator. Really? Just trying to make those GM owners aware? Not quite so visible on the positive threads though.

Also, please don't put words into my mouth about Subaru(s)not being a quality brand. Point is Puro makes Motorcraft/Mopar filter to their specs with no issues. If it was thicker cans and gaskets they wanted, just wonder why Puro couldn't do the same with Subaru specs.

As for your "confidential documents", you seen them? Not too confidential then, but very impressive sounding.

And, you totally missed the point about the filter placement. Filter, long or short, if the exhaust manifold encircles the oil filter, that likely means increased heat in the area, possibly making gasket thickness a more important factor then other vehicles. fwiw, I've never seen another vehicle where the oil filter is surrounded by the exhaust manifold. Just thought that might be a good point to bring up since AE mentioned it.

Lastly, not liking Purolator on your Subaru is one thing, don't use it. But when you carry it over to other threads and prentend it's just a Subaru issue, that's another. Just admit you don't like them, and be done with it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: sayjac

Also, please don't put words into my mouth about Subaru(s)not being a quality brand. Point is Puro makes Motorcraft/Mopar filter to their specs with no issues. If it was thicker cans and gaskets they wanted, just wonder why Puro couldn't do the same with Subaru specs.


If Subaru specified to Purolator how to make the OEM Subaru filters, then it was Subaru doing the driving, not Purolator.

 

[Soobs]

Yes, my sincerest apologies. You've caught me. It's my personal vendetta against Purolator for whatever reasons you'd like to dream up. I've got Classics on two cars right now, and have posted Puro's pics here of some oil changes in the not so distant past. Granted both times the media seperated from the end caps on two pleats by the media connection (and that's been brought up several times here), but I digress... I'm happy you've never had an issue with them. I've not often had issues with them, but issues do exist and I like to share my experiences with other people here to figure out what went wrong. Sorry, it's reality for mass produced aftermarket k-mart specials.

I bring up the gasket issue in threads where the problem is brought up and replicated irregardless of the manufacturer.

I'm interested in the good value filters that work the best for a particular application. Sometimes it's OEM, somtimes it's not. I'm not displaying a misguided fanboyism for one particular brand or another. It pains so many to think that Purolater isn't a one-stop-shop of infaulable filtration and lord forbid you have a negative experience. I just don't have time for that nonsense. Again, these are fine filters for a lot of applications, but not all. Thank you drive through.

 

[Soobs]

Originally Posted By: sayjac


Also, please don't put words into my mouth about Subaru(s)not being a quality brand. Point is Puro makes Motorcraft/Mopar filter to their specs with no issues. If it was thicker cans and gaskets they wanted, just wonder why Puro couldn't do the same with Subaru specs.


I wasn't putting words into your mouth. I was asking. Trying to understand why you'd assume Subaru was the source of the problem when neither the previous or subsequent filter companies had any problems building the filters to spec.

Originally Posted By: sayjac

As for your "confidential documents", you seen them? Not too confidential then, but very impressive sounding.


Never said anything about me seeing confidential documents. You missed the point. If you're looking for some citing and reports about "who is to blame" for this problem you probably won't ever find them. Again, who cares who is to blame? I'm just interested if the filter works well or not.

Originally Posted By: sayjac

And, you totally missed the point about the filter placement. Filter, long or short, if the exhaust manifold encircles the oil filter, that likely means increased heat in the area, possibly making gasket thickness a more important factor then other vehicles. fwiw, I've never seen another vehicle where the oil filter is surrounded by the exhaust manifold. Just thought that might be a good point to bring up since AE mentioned it.


Exactly, and I didn't miss a point. Kudos, you're exactly right. I never said otherwise.

 

[Kitto]

Here is my observations about the gasket on Purolator oil filter. The small size like L14610, L14612, L14476, L14477, have a thin gasket. The bigger size like L10241, L20195, FL-400S, etc, have thicker gasket that is comparable to competitor's filter ex. WIX's 51348, 51516.

 

[thunderchild]

Originally Posted By: Soobs
Originally Posted By: Soobs

After this recall, they replaced the Purolators with Tokyo Roki oil filters again, not Honeywell. The Honeywells didn't come out until late 2008. I've been using the Honeywells since they became the OEM. Not one problem with them, but several leaky experiences with the PL14612. I hear people have better luck with the 14460 model, but I've never tried it as it's not referenced to my engine and it has no ADBV.


Hate replying to my own post, but I think it's important to note that this was one of two gasket issues I know about with Purolater and Subaru. In addition to the cans fracturing, they did have many problems with just the gaskets failing and seeping oil. I don't have citing info for this, but if you're that interested just call up any Subaru dealership and ask for an advisor or mechanic that's been around for a few years. They'll be happy to fill you in.



I have experienced this weeping of oil myself. I found out it was the filter and now use the Mobil1 filters. No weeping of oil since I changed.