Is there a difference between Sierra, Amsoil, and Evans coolants. Aren't they all PG? Amsoil recommends mixing with water but Evans does not. Why? Does the engine run cooler or fight detonation better with PG? Thanks.
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Propylene Glycol
- Thread starter gofins
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The Amsoil product is an extended use (7 years or 250,000 miles in passenger vehicles), universal coolant that can also be used in commercial diesel engines for 7 years or 750,000 miles. It uses a poly organic acid technology (POAT) and can be used in "wet sleeve" diesel engines without SCA's which are normally added to prevent cavitation damage to the cylinder liners. These include the older PSD diesels....
The Evans coolant is formulated to be used with a pressureless cooling system. I haven't tried it, but I did spend a hour or so reviewing the data on their website and it's very impressive. I'd certainly consider it if I had an application that could benefit from it....
The Sierra is a cheap, average quality PG coolant whose main benefit is reduced toxicity. It still needs to be changed every 2 years....
I am using the Amsoil coolant in the 1995 Tacoma I sold to my nephew last years. Coolant temps run about the same as with the Toyota coolant and Amsoil coolant I drained after three years and 40,000 miles was very clean looking. I took the t-stat housing apart and there is no scale buildup visible. I can recommend this product based on the results I've had.
Tooslick
The Evans coolant is formulated to be used with a pressureless cooling system. I haven't tried it, but I did spend a hour or so reviewing the data on their website and it's very impressive. I'd certainly consider it if I had an application that could benefit from it....
The Sierra is a cheap, average quality PG coolant whose main benefit is reduced toxicity. It still needs to be changed every 2 years....
I am using the Amsoil coolant in the 1995 Tacoma I sold to my nephew last years. Coolant temps run about the same as with the Toyota coolant and Amsoil coolant I drained after three years and 40,000 miles was very clean looking. I took the t-stat housing apart and there is no scale buildup visible. I can recommend this product based on the results I've had.
Tooslick
gofins
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Thanks. Will the Amsoil or Sierra fight detonation like the Evans claims?
Is there some pressing need to run propylene glycol in your case or is there a perceived advantage to it...???
From what I have seen there is absolutely no advantage to running PG coolant unless you are paranoid about the toxicity of the EG. EG makes a better coolant due to the lower viscosity and greater specific heat.
From what I have seen there is absolutely no advantage to running PG coolant unless you are paranoid about the toxicity of the EG. EG makes a better coolant due to the lower viscosity and greater specific heat.
From everything I have read the difference performance wise is a toss up. So I don't believe that is a factor at all.
I use the Amsoil and have had good luck with their old formulation, the new stuff looks to be an improvement.
The reason I use the PG is the environmental and if the oil gets contaminated it won't tear up the engine bearings like a EG can.
I have tried the evans in a 98 Ford Taurus and it seemed to not out with a restrictive stock heater core. I got luke warm heat at stoplights.
Evans is the only stuff I,m aware of that is supposed to "really" help with detonation.
I use the Amsoil and have had good luck with their old formulation, the new stuff looks to be an improvement.
The reason I use the PG is the environmental and if the oil gets contaminated it won't tear up the engine bearings like a EG can.
I have tried the evans in a 98 Ford Taurus and it seemed to not out with a restrictive stock heater core. I got luke warm heat at stoplights.
Evans is the only stuff I,m aware of that is supposed to "really" help with detonation.
gofins
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Toxicity is not a reason at all. The main reason is to fight detonation (if it does) and maybe to run a little cooler. I am going to have at least 12 lbs of boost on a 347 so anything that may help ward off detonation is welcome. I also read that Evan's seems to thicken at high temps (normal engine temps?) and that worries me. I may try the Amway but if being environmentally friendly is the ONLY benefit, I'll use plain old EG. Are all EG's the same?? If I decide to use an EG, what would be recommended?
Friend of mine runs waterless with the Evans in a turbo'd suburu truck motor that we built for his airplane. He was having boil over problems while waiting to taxi, this has solved the problem. The coolant temp runs higher but doesn't boil, may be a problem for sensored FI motors not sure I'd go there. The elimination of steam pockets may solve hot spots that could cause detonation? but I wouldn't try to run any more boost or timing just on that alone.
It's my understanding that most PG products have some water in them, so aren't suitable for a true waterless system.
[ April 19, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: wileyE ]
It's my understanding that most PG products have some water in them, so aren't suitable for a true waterless system.
[ April 19, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: wileyE ]
The coolant you buy serves two functions. 1. To prevent the liquid from freezing and increase the boiling point.(I guess that is two things?!?) 2) provide corrosion resistance.
As far as helping with the cooling capacity, water has a higher specific heat than PG and PG has a higher specific heat than EG.
Cooling systems for industrial diesel or gas engines often use straight water with an anti corrosion additive, as long as there is no risk of freezing. Propylene Glycol is the next choice for freeze protection. But if possible a 35% mixture will be used since it reduces the cooling efficiency of the heat exchangers/radiators, if necessary 50% is used. If there are great environmental concerns Ethylene glycol is used but you get more reduced efficiency from the heat exchanger/radiator so your heat exchanger will be larger.
One thing to remember. With auto coolant the corrosion inhibitor is mixed with the coolant. So to ensure you get enough corrosion inhibitor you need a 50% mix. If your car lived in Florida you would be better off with straight water and a corrosion inhibitor. But, you better not drive up north in the winter.
As far as helping with the cooling capacity, water has a higher specific heat than PG and PG has a higher specific heat than EG.
Cooling systems for industrial diesel or gas engines often use straight water with an anti corrosion additive, as long as there is no risk of freezing. Propylene Glycol is the next choice for freeze protection. But if possible a 35% mixture will be used since it reduces the cooling efficiency of the heat exchangers/radiators, if necessary 50% is used. If there are great environmental concerns Ethylene glycol is used but you get more reduced efficiency from the heat exchanger/radiator so your heat exchanger will be larger.
One thing to remember. With auto coolant the corrosion inhibitor is mixed with the coolant. So to ensure you get enough corrosion inhibitor you need a 50% mix. If your car lived in Florida you would be better off with straight water and a corrosion inhibitor. But, you better not drive up north in the winter.
I understand the logic here but I disagree with the final conclusion. In Florida with straight water you might technically have a greater cooling system heat transfer capacity (due to the lesser viscosity and greater specific heat) but you would run a severe risk of the system boiling over. Even with a 15 PSI cap the water would boil very early with no EG or PG in the system and all modern cooling systems are sized to allow the coolant to get well into the range it would boil without a 50/50 mix in it.quote:
Originally posted by Winston:
If your car lived in Florida you would be better off with straight water and a corrosion inhibitor. But, you better not drive up north in the winter.
Just having more cooling system heat transfer capacity does not add that much cooling capacity to the vehicle so as to prevent the coolant from getting hot enough to boil without the 50/50 mix. Besides, with plain water, there would be inevitable steam generation in hotter spots of the engine and steam/aereated coolant makes for a poor poor cooling system capacity and will cause the water pump to lock up on vapor and stop pumping or pump poorly thus exacerbating the problem even more.
I understand the logic, like I said, but I hope no-one really thinks this will work or that it is a good idea....it isn't.
NASCAR guys routinely run with pure water since glycol is taboo due to fire and track cleaning difficulties but they run 24 PSI systems to keep the boiling in check.
My memory must be fading as I thought that ethyleneglycol had a much higher specific heat than propyleneglycol making it a better heat transfer agent...am I mistaken in this recollection...???quote:
Originally posted by Winston:
As far as helping with the cooling capacity, water has a higher specific heat than PG and PG has a higher specific heat than EG.
EG does have a slightly higher specific heat than does PG. However, PG coolants exhibit improved nucleate boiling behavior, ie they generate smaller bubbles on the surface, which aids thermal conductivity....
I haven't see any appreciable difference in coolant temps with the PG coolants in my vehicles and they do seem to hold up well in service.
TS
I haven't see any appreciable difference in coolant temps with the PG coolants in my vehicles and they do seem to hold up well in service.
TS
Every once in a while I run into an owner that feels that it is better to use water only or even water with anti-rust/pump lube. No matter what concoction they seem to think will be an adequate substitute for anti-freeze, it doesn't work. The cooling system get really horrible after a couple of years. It's unbelievable how bad it can get.
The less you need anti freeze, the more you need anti boil.
Toxicity is an issue not just for the paranoid. A lot of kids and pets die from EG. Borderline better protections is not worth the risk of poisoning.
Toxicity is an issue not just for the paranoid. A lot of kids and pets die from EG. Borderline better protections is not worth the risk of poisoning.
50% mixture is a good compromise. We see engines over heat when there is around 60% or more glycol. We also see problems when it is less than about %40 because of the lower boil point.
I have used Evans for years. The early formulation was really thick. It caused water pumps on my Volvo 240 and 740 Turbos to leak prematurely. It probably was not the best coolant for the stock or stock style extra row radiators with 1/2 inch wide rows. Apparently, it works best with at least 1 inch wide rows, preferably two of them. I am now using a GM aftermarket radiator with double 1 inch rows. That seems to help. I am also using the newer formulation NPG+ that is thinner. I think I saw an ad for an even newer formulation, but don't yet know anything about it. I bought the Evans for the claims that detonation may be reduced. I did not have overheating problems.
Frankly, for detonation reduction on a turbo motor, premium gas, colder engine thermostat and fan switch, colder plygs, a boost retard ignition and water injection are the best remedies. Water injection is great. I use an Aquamist system, but the Snow Performance boost cooler is probably just as good for less money.
Philip Bradley
Frankly, for detonation reduction on a turbo motor, premium gas, colder engine thermostat and fan switch, colder plygs, a boost retard ignition and water injection are the best remedies. Water injection is great. I use an Aquamist system, but the Snow Performance boost cooler is probably just as good for less money.
Philip Bradley
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