That's pretty funny.
Project Farm - Tests Pennzoil Motor Oil
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OVERKILL
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The problem is that once these "merits" are sufficiently explained away, a new thread is created and the whole Gong Show repeats. For the people that are having to constantly re-hash this nonsense, it gets quite tiring.
There were multiple threads about this one video going simultaneously before they were all removed. I had commented extensively in one of them, this isn't it. I'm glad to see the disclaimer now added to the OP at least.
Yes, it's their fault, but I'm the one getting dragged through the mud when I refuse to warranty their screw ups.
I probably should loosen up. I'm just very passionate about proper scientific controls and methods, as well as chemistry and tribology. To me, watching those videos is like a chef watching someone cook a steak in a toaster.
This engine was together for 2 years and 4,500 miles with probably 80-100 1/4-mile hits. It was broken in on Driven BR30, with varying load/rpm and heat cycling, then lobes mic checked and preload checked before I sold it to him. When he picked it up, it still had the BR30 break-in oil in it and I sent 6 quarts of VR1 with him. I also put a list of approved oils on the engine's spec sheet which was about 20 oils that had >1000 ppm Zn/P.
The warranty was limited. I would repair it if it was determined to be a assembly error on my part. It had two wiped lobes with clear abrasive wear to several others. I sampled the oil which showed a generic API SN add pack with ~650 ppm P with a cam that was 236 / 241 @ .050", .552" / .547" lift, 111 +3 LSA and aggressive ramps turning 7000 rpm. There was no way I was going to warranty that after seeing the UOA. I offered to repair it for him for just the cost of parts +10% for tools/material, and he went haywire, cussing me out. That's when he admitted to changing the oil based on Project Farm's videos. I told him to take his engine to Project Farm since he trusts him more than me. He's been bad mouthing me ever since.
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OVERKILL
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Might as well just sniff them, it's going to be as equally valid, unless they are working to lube a bearing test machine, in which case, there are clearly better options that aren't any of these oils.
Very simple its the one on sale with a rebate!
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Most of the videos I’ve seen in his oil comparisons are from oils that have certifications/approvals. So most of his oils already have been critically tested. Hair splitting is all he is doing, and he clearly states it’s for entertainment.
If all things are equal - as I read here everyday - then what‘s the harm? If UOA’s are meaningless because they can’t determine an outcome based on too many variables. If VOA’s are useless because the oil meets specifications and who are we to judge when we don’t know what the base stocks are...or how are we to know what additive package is best for a given oil? Then what’s the point really? What’s the point in even having this site? Just lock it down and put up a page with all the oil certifications and call it a day.
And never mind oil change intervals. Just go by the manufacturer, they know more than you. Right? So no need to discuss that either.
There’s a member here that goes 15,000 miles on conventional, posts his UOA results and has been thoroughly praised for it. It’s his car, it’s his choice. I would think that most people here change their own oil, have some sort of experience in common sense and car maintenance. Lord knows all of us have our own regimens and opinions. Project Farm clearly states his videos are for entertainment purposes, and his own opinion/preference is to use Super Tech Synthetic for 5,000 mile intervals. Even his own personal advice falls within “safe” margins for most people. I fail to see the harm (unless he’s showing videos of Mobil1 0W20 EP vs Fram Conventional 5W30, proclaiming a winner and telling you try it). Is he doing that stuff?
By PF's testing, by pricing, and by claimed performance: PUP is believed to be the best oil from the ones in question from Pennzoil's line up. I ran them all and in my experience PUP 5W30 performed the worst. In various (direct and port injection) vehicles the symptoms were the same. 3k-4k miles into my normal 5k OCIs the valvetrains became more audible (especially at idle after a highway run) and oil disappeared from the crankcase even in vehicles that never consumed oils before. Just my experience, yours may vary. I like Pennzoil Euro L offerings though. And (flashback time) the gunmetal gray bottle of Pennzoil SRT 0W-40. (with HYPER cleaning technology!!! lol) My multiple 2JZ vehicles at the time purred with that juice.
To an extent, I blame the manufacturers for making too many flavors. I've generally liked Pennzoil's offerings, to an extent that's influenced by my time here, but I think there is an unnecessary level of complication or tiered offerings.
He needs a roller there, Did you try to talk him into one, or did he cheap out and pay the price?
Good to see the varied rpm; that 2000 for 20 minutes is inadequate.
I cant see anyone pulling the cam or lifting the IM to inspect lobes until a couple seasons have passed.
Got to rack it up to his tough luck and ignorance and say bye-bye. Not fun to loose a customer and then get badmouth for no reason all over town- that's the worst part of the whole thing. You did your part.
- Ken
OVERKILL
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The manufacturers see this as an opportunity to increase sales. Create a tiered portfolio of offerings, gives them more shelf space and increases the likelihood of poaching sales from one of their competitors.
Say somebody can't justify the money on PUP, but they see a "Pennzoil Synthetic" product sitting in the same area, priced the same as Supertech, well, that's a brand name they recognize, at a competitive price! They'll just buy that instead.
Bobby Joe, who normally buys Mobil 1, notices that Pennzoil has multiple tiers of synthetic and "Ultra Platinum" sounds just like the bees knees, so maybe he gives that a spin instead?
Since we know the bar for the API approvals and even Dexos can be met with a good slug of Group II+, there's a lot of room above that to offer products that increasingly do better in areas that the developer sees as important.
Which is why the video disappeared in the first place.
Entertainment masquerading as testing leads people to believe things that are not true.
BITOG isn’t in the business of supporting Internet personalities or spreading misinformation.
PF is absolutely both, in this case, personality-driven misinformation.
The concern was this: the uninformed, average person, will ascribe some degree of validity to the PF results and make decisions on those results.
Some of the posts subsequent to the video reinstatement clearly demonstrate why we had that concern.
Posters believe that PF “tests” are relevant. Posters allow these invalid, irrelevant “tests” to inform their purchase decision - and that’s a big mistake.
I could compare the taste, or color, of each oil, too, but it doesn’t have any relevance for the performance of that product in an engine. Just because you “can” measure a thing, doesn’t mean that you should. If you choose pointless things to measure, in tests that have no relevance, you haven’t accomplished anything.
I could, for example, carefully, scientifically measure the shoe size and belt size of every NFL athlete, and then draw conclusions on who will win the next game. Package it up in a video with charts and graphs. Maybe even gain followers and subscribers.
But my “testing” would be just like PF - a selection of parameters, measured carefully, that have no relevance, significance, or application. The result is simply entertainment- with no actual insight into individual athletic performance, all the while ignoring the important aspects of how players work as a team to win a game.
I'm the one that spoke to one of the mods about unlocking this and I appreciated the frank convo with him about it. These posts are not against the rules and clearly are oil-related. At some point folks can also scroll past. The disclaimer should handle it and was a great idea the mods had that should handle those here that think this shouldn't be allowed.
The mod team always considers member suggestions.
Thank you for taking the time to send us a PM.
Wayne
Thank you!
The healthy discussions about a post, pros and cons, are what I come here for.
Also, I don't like it when threads are locked for "bickering", or for no apparent reason at all. This is what a forum is all about. I like reading dissenting arguments (as long as it doesn't become personal), it gives me a different perspective to consider. All too often threads are locked when they needn't be.
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BITOG isn’t in the business of supporting Internet personalities or spreading misinformation.
That may be a true statement but how do we know that any of the information that we gather from this forum, or any forum I guess, either in the written words or a video, has any validity. This forum is full of anonymous people's opinions and information and it becomes up to us members to try to decide what is accurate and what is not. Stay here long enough and we decide who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. Most of the people on here only give glimpses into who they are or why we should value the information they present. This forum has been a great source of varied information and I stop by multiple times a day. But, every decision we make must ultimately be decided by each of us. If a Project Farm video influences someone to make a bad decision, so be it. I like to think that if we're on here, we are somewhat smarter than the average car owner.
That may be a true statement but how do we know that any of the information that we gather from this forum, or any forum I guess, either in the written words or a video, has any validity. This forum is full of anonymous people's opinions and information and it becomes up to us members to try to decide what is accurate and what is not. Stay here long enough and we decide who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. Most of the people on here only give glimpses into who they are or why we should value the information they present. This forum has been a great source of varied information and I stop by multiple times a day. But, every decision we make must ultimately be decided by each of us. If a Project Farm video influences someone to make a bad decision, so be it. I like to think that if we're on here, we are somewhat smarter than the average car owner.
I tried to get him to go roller. He didn't want to pay for it. Oh well...
I checked the lobe by measuring lift at the valve. Then used that measurement with preload to compare to what it was when assembled. It was all dead on as I set it before first startup.
I'll still do the 2000 rpm for 10-15 minutes, just to get heat in it. Then I'll rev it to 3000 rpm and use a hydraulic brake to apply to load it down to 2000 rpm, hold for 30 seconds, and then let it go back to 3000 rpm. Repeat a dozen times or so. Then I shut it off to cool all the way down to ambient and make tuning adjustments. Then the engine goes in a car or on the dyno to get the snot beat out of it. Get the oil up to about 180°F and make several pulls. Shut it off, let it cool all the way down again, and make tuning adjustments. Fire it up and repeat and repeat again, keep heat cycling it. Then I change the filter, top off the oil, and let it go 100-200 miles or 15-20 hits at the track.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
The mods spoke to multiple people, FWIW. I know, because I'm one of them as well. We discussed the idea of a disclaimer to hopefully curb the speculative nature of the discourse that typically follows a PF video, but unfortunately, that doesn't appear to have been effective.
Being "oil related" doesn't imply the conversation has value or can't result in perpetuation of misinformation and bad science. I could start a thread on one of the lies the anti-nukes push and I'd have tons of engagement by people who aren't well educated on the subject and think the material has merit. If we had a Power Generation sub forum, and this was subsequently "power generation related", having that conversation 300x because some anti-nuke has a popular youtube channel makes it OK? Of course it doesn't. At some point, somebody has to step-in and ensure that conversations can't be perpetually steered in that direction just because of the popularity of a particular talking head using the medium as a revenue tool.
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There are quite a few “not anonymous” folks on here who make oil for a living, who are in the lubricant business, who have PhDs in the field, who regularly conduct valid, legitimate, scientific testing of oil to continue to advance the industry.
They are absolutely experts. I’m not one of them, but I can, and do, recognize true expertise in their field.
I‘ve seen, first hand, some of the testing equipment and protocols they use. Thank you @High Performance Lubricants for that insight. Really rigorous, detailed, relevant testing.
When people ascribe validity to videos like this PF test, it’s basically an insult to the actual testing and work that they do. Ignorance of that work isn’t really an excuse, as the types of tests, and results, are discussed on this forum.
But to the point that I think you’re making: we should be allowed to see posts, both from experts and from the uninformed - that’s exactly the discussion that the moderator team had last night, after several reasonable discussions from members via PM.
If we remove videos like PF, we are absolutely removing bad information, but we also appear to be controlling information about certain products.
Controlling information about certain products was never the intent. The intent was to remove bad information, but members made a good point about being able to discuss bad information, as well as the appearance of protecting a product.
Members wanted to have the opportunity to peer review and debate bad information. We listened.
Thus, the bad information was reinstated.
People are free to debate, to make up their minds, and ultimately, to believe foolish things, if they choose.
Shel_B
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