Product cheapening or demand for low prices?

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We often hear of folks complaining about declining product quality.
The flip side of that is that nobody outside of the producing industries complains about declining product prices.
Let's consider two major and one minor groups of products.

1. Air travel: Everyone including me complains about how small pitch (distance between seats) has gotten as airlines stuff as many rows in an aircraft as its type certification allows, even adding an extra seat to each row where possible. The flip side of this is that commercial air travel has never been cheaper in real dollars, or even in nominal dollars in many cases. Has the product been cheapened? Yes, and travelers have voted with their wallets to make it so. Are there roomier seats available for those willing to pay for them? Sure, but most aren't.

2. Vehicles: A common complaint is that vehicle interiors have come to be dominated with hard plastics and have a much less inviting look and feel than those of a couple of decades back. The flip side of this is that in comparing apples to apples, new vehicles are less costly now in constant dollars than those of a couple of decades back even though there are certain quality improvements that are now universal, like four channel ABS, VSC and side airbags with power windows, central locking and air conditioning found on all but a small handful of models. When considering the marginal cost of an automatic transaxle and alloy wheels, my '12 Accord cost about the same in nominal dollars as my '99 5 spd on steelies, so was actually cheaper in constant dollar terms. The '99 did have a much nicer interior, but lacked side airbags and ABS. Like many, I accepted the de-contented interior in exchange for a surprisingly low purchase price. There was always the option of paying more for an EX with a nicer interior and many others went that route.
In comparing similar models over time, new vehicles are no more costly in real terms than they were back in the day.

3. Motor oil: Many here bemoan the adoption of Grp III synthetics and look with nostalgia at the days when the term "synthetic" meant a Grp IV or V oil. Now, the retail DIY oil market is a small one as compared to most consumer goods, but here again, people have voted with their wallets and select Grp III synthetics at some large multiple over the quantities of Grp IV/V products. M1 costs about the same in nominal dollars as it did two decades ago and nobody seriously avoids it just because it's no longer a mostly PAO oil, although some grades still are. The same is true across this market as a whole. There are still mostly Grp IV/V products available for those willing to pay a premium for them, but most of us aren't.

My point is that in most cases what we all view as product cheapening by evil corporate behemoths has also brought lower prices in constant dollars in competitive markets for all of us price shopping consumers.
Premium products are also always available for those willing to pay a premium price.
IOW, we've gotten what we demanded with our money.
 
Air travel price isn't dominated by the consumer, it's dominated by large companies.

For decades I've observed I get more leg room in the compact-class rental car than I get in the airplane. The car company still sells the car to the consumer, who will not buy it if it has airplane-equivalent leg room.
 
Good post, I agree and I am willing to pay more for PAO/POE oil. It's my analness and having to have to use POE rotary screw compressor oil at work just to save them from full blown varnishing problems. Even though most engines are 100% fine on group 3's. Minnesota winters with my car outside make me want group4/5's I cocktail depending on my mood of Mobil 1 extended, Amsoil XL and Signature Series and every 5 Qts gets at least 1 QT of Redline to get more Ester in there.

When will the small personal size potato chip/Doritos bags finally give us 5 chips for $1.25? They are getting close.

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Way back in the good old days, before there was any "synthetic" on the market, I ran good brand conventional oil for 5K in V8 and V6 motors. Didn't have oil tests then either. Never had a car to fail due to oil. But we did have to change plugs and points about 10-12K and get regular grease jobs. Now that I think about it, I like the new vehicles and oils better...much less maintenance.
smile.gif
 
You covered a lot of ground with your examples.
Caution: my response may not fit the airtight math of debate.

One thing you didn't factor in was the sweeping nature of what's produced. You really do not get to choose what you buy.
We get run of the mill stuff. An option or two for "dressed up" auto interiors isn't the kind of choice which matters.

It's true air bags and ABS systems constitute an improvement in "quality" and thus an effective reduction in price.
However the cheapness anyone can complain about exists while the car company essentially forces us to buy those alloy wheels and sunroofs.
Their economies of scale tempered by what other manufacturers install AND their whimsey dictate what gets offered for sale.
To continue with this example, these options are packaged together resulting in "choices" which are impossible to characterize.

No car dealer (or company) ever asked, "Would you like the heated seats without having to purchase them in a $2,700 option package?"
FYI: This example is true. It came via our recent purchase of a 2016 Mazda3.

All the carp which manufacturers can dream up blur the precise "definitions" employed in sterilized "market force" arguments.

EXAMPLE: I want a vertical room fan which I can turn ON and OFF. I want the fan's oscillation to be ON or OFF too, just like older fans.
NO FAN FOR ME. I can buy a vertical fan with a cheap computer thing on top which electronically adjusts velocity randomly, has a sleep timer and controls the oscillation.
It breaks (because it's cheaply made) and I'm invited to throw it away.
Don't tell me all the electronic junk atop that fan made it a better value or somehow cheaper. I got no choice in the matter.

That's one reason jack-economists' use of the words, "Oh, let the free market decide" is so often fallacious.

So much of what's made today is stuff I'd rather live without for these reasons.

Also, you can rarely buy what you really want. "I'll give you 30% more money for 6" additional of leg room". Ain't possible.

Manufacturers and airlines push their products to the point where they hear complaints. Then they think about it.

The small seat on your bi-annual trip to Denver isn't something you're going to "complain" about effectively.

I'm rambling and I have day-off stuff to do. Cheers, G&K
 
Originally Posted By: Kira
You covered a lot of ground with your examples.
Caution: my response may not fit the airtight math of debate.

One thing you didn't factor in was the sweeping nature of what's produced. You really do not get to choose what you buy.
We get run of the mill stuff. An option or two for "dressed up" auto interiors isn't the kind of choice which matters.

It's true air bags and ABS systems constitute an improvement in "quality" and thus an effective reduction in price.
However the cheapness anyone can complain about exists while the car company essentially forces us to buy those alloy wheels and sunroofs.
Their economies of scale tempered by what other manufacturers install AND their whimsey dictate what gets offered for sale.
To continue with this example, these options are packaged together resulting in "choices" which are impossible to characterize.

No car dealer (or company) ever asked, "Would you like the heated seats without having to purchase them in a $2,700 option package?"
FYI: This example is true. It came via our recent purchase of a 2016 Mazda3.

All the carp which manufacturers can dream up blur the precise "definitions" employed in sterilized "market force" arguments.

EXAMPLE: I want a vertical room fan which I can turn ON and OFF. I want the fan's oscillation to be ON or OFF too, just like older fans.
NO FAN FOR ME. I can buy a vertical fan with a cheap computer thing on top which electronically adjusts velocity randomly, has a sleep timer and controls the oscillation.
It breaks (because it's cheaply made) and I'm invited to throw it away.
Don't tell me all the electronic junk atop that fan made it a better value or somehow cheaper. I got no choice in the matter.

That's one reason jack-economists' use of the words, "Oh, let the free market decide" is so often fallacious.

So much of what's made today is stuff I'd rather live without for these reasons.

Also, you can rarely buy what you really want. "I'll give you 30% more money for 6" additional of leg room". Ain't possible.

Manufacturers and airlines push their products to the point where they hear complaints. Then they think about it.

The small seat on your bi-annual trip to Denver isn't something you're going to "complain" about effectively.

I'm rambling and I have day-off stuff to do. Cheers, G&K


Don't forget LED lighting, no way will they last as long as they say. LED lights longevity has a lot to do with the quality of components on their micro motherboards, most of which have codes on their cheap sub-par components that can be back tracked to the manufacture stating the lifespan is far far less then the lifespan stated by the bulb manufacture.

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For the interior of the car, there are so many more crash test mandated changes versus 20 years ago. In the last 10 years, new focus on the pedestrian impact to the front of cars, changing the shape of hoods and adding crush space where none existed for this scenario before.

In 1980 while driving the family 1972 Ford Galaxie 500, winding up the drivers window the pot metal crank snapped off in my hand and gave me a nice cut in left palm. My 2004 Passat - not exactly a paragon of reliability based on the net - went to the scrap yard in March 2018 with all 4 - original - power windows fully functional. My point is that quality & standard features have improved significantly over the years.
 
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You also have to understand when a company is trying to establish market presence and grow vs coasting on their existing brand equity.

Amazon was king 4-5 years ago but has finally started profit-taking. If we assume by default they still have best prices/ service and blindly buy from them, we are eating from their hands, as designed.

Hyundai made some sharp cars for cheap money at around the turn of the millennium, before their reputation caught up with them and their pricing matched their competitors.

Harbor Freight is turning into a legitimate tool vendor.

Discount Tire Direct and Advance Auto Parts aren't the wonder-cheap outlets they were last year.

The trick is to find a company on the upswing, and kind of keep it a secret so they keep trying harder, longer.
 
It depends entirely on what vehicles you are looking at when discussing the hard plastics. They were available then, they are available now. Dodge interiors have improved by leaps and bounds over what they pushed out in the early 2000's, Ford's 80's stuff was full of hard plastic, as was GM's and basically everybody else.

Compare the centre stack, dash and cluster in a Sunbird to a Cruise. Seat quality? Door panels? Not even close. My M5 had amazing interior, but it was a 100K car 17 years ago!

Engines have improved, transmissions have improved, sound deadening has improved and as you noted, crash safety has significantly improved as has corrosion resistance.

Our old Expedition was top-trim when it was produced in 2002 and had every option available. It had a hard plastic dash, external panel fitment was good but internal wasn't great. It got abysmal gas mileage and with the biggest V8 offered, made 260HP. The GC has the same towing capacity, massively more power, gets far better gas mileage (although it IS lighter), the interior isn't even comparable, nor is the level of features and luxury items it has. A similarly equipped TrailHawk would sticker for around the same as the Expedition did, and is probably actually cheaper when adjusted for inflation, as if I build one on Ford's website, I'm just under $85,000.
 
It is just the perception of cheaper prices. The marketing depts have brainwashed you, thinking that a reduction in quality is a good thing if it brings cheaper prices.

Your arguments make sense if the quality drop was proportional to the reduction in price, but I would argue that for every example of that there is a lack of proportionality in at least two. Also, there are many products that have been cheapened without a reduced price.

I have to mention that a lot of the cheapening is by moving overseas.

There are no free lunches.
 
Vehicle quality has gone up. I currently have two trucks with over a 1/4 million miles.

(a Ford Ranger with 287,000 miles and a 1995 7.4 K3500 with 293,000 miles)

My 2008 F150 is catching up fast!
 
This is all cute talk, but don't let that warm feeling fool you-it's all about the profit. And any way they have to do to get more, they will do it...

I expect stuff to both rise in price and get cheaper...to conform to the latest wall street expectations. And many companies are just struggling to get there! So more cost cutting and job loss is what it will ake to get there....

Sorry if I paint a dark picture-but the light might be coming as we are getting to a point where those profits won't get much higher....with some dark days for those 401ks ahead....
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Vehicle quality has gone up. I currently have two trucks with over a 1/4 million miles.

(a Ford Ranger with 287,000 miles and a 1995 7.4 K3500 with 293,000 miles)

My 2008 F150 is catching up fast!


Sorta-when they improve somewhere,something else gets cut.....
 
As a self employed business I can tell you that what I see people are so thrifty today I see
Price being their first consideration these days and quality second. In the 70's to late 90's
I would get calls that I want the absolute best and I'm willing to pay for it.

Since then it is all about the steal. I make less than I made in the 80's because I have to now compete
with third world countries but I will not lower the quality of materials or craftsmanship.
Really you can't. I just plan on making far less these days. I can compete with anybody but at some point
I'm just going to say goodbye. Every year profits get less and less while materials, electricity, insurance, etc.
continues to climb. Only wages are stagnant. Its just 21'st century life!
 
Originally Posted By: Zee09
As a self employed business I can tell you that what I see people are so thrifty today


I'm not sure that they are thrifty as much as cheap--or perhaps that they are cheap only in certain areas (like where it matters). I mean, if I were to make the statement that the average American is carrying around the latest cellphone with its attendant dataplan while cruising in a late model SUV--how many would argue with that? even though I just made it up based on casual observation.

I get that some in the business world need the flashy car and high end phone (people in sales or CEO's and that level), I'm not knocking them, but for the average schmoe I question using the term "thrifty" when they are just scratching by while chasing after the Jones.
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Zee09
As a self employed business I can tell you that what I see people are so thrifty today


I'm not sure that they are thrifty as much as cheap--or perhaps that they are cheap only in certain areas (like where it matters). I mean, if I were to make the statement that the average American is carrying around the latest cellphone with its attendant dataplan while cruising in a late model SUV--how many would argue with that? even though I just made it up based on casual observation.

I get that some in the business world need the flashy car and high end phone (people in sales or CEO's and that level), I'm not knocking them, but for the average schmoe I question using the term "thrifty" when they are just scratching by while chasing after the Jones.


I agree and honestly I was not trying to offend anyone here.
People are addicted to cheap foreign imports and today they buy way too much as opposed to the pre-internet days
and with their limited income they like to steal. I hear them say it but when you are dealing with custom made items you can't force the price down to nothing. Why? Because we go away. I can sit and do nothing and not lose money. Why kill myself and
lose money. I used to get tips 20 years ago I couldn't believe and holiday gifts etc. Today, I get abuse and no money... lol!

Cell phones and the digital slop is their life. They won't pay for insurance or housing but have no issue dumping $800
on a phone every year. Life is different these days and if you sell items that are used outdoors, good luck with that.
They never leave their houses these days.
 
Nobody ever wants to spend their money. Even though in the long run it will last longer. Think Kubota tractors for example. You can spend a fortune and in 20 years it will still work great and still be worth a ton of money.
 
While I agree with the OP very strongly, this one has me scratching my head.



The gearbox is a 6 speed by design and construction, but valves to be a 5 speed, and the sold as a six speed later on in the model years.
 
Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
Nobody ever wants to spend their money. Even though in the long run it will last longer. Think Kubota tractors for example. You can spend a fortune and in 20 years it will still work great and still be worth a ton of money.
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Yeah... When presented with quality, you usually hear, I don't need that, and the excuses fly on why cheaper is better. Most actually want the best at below wholesale. It just doesn't work that way.
 
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