Pro Logixx charger fans- questions..

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UncleDave

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These chargers seem to have a loyal following and I always seem to need more battery charge/ maintainers.

This particular quest has me looking for a 10-20 Amp charger capable of charging and maintaining a 200-450AH bank.

Most " smart" chargers list the AH range they are good for - 2-200AH etc...

I'm looking at the pro logixx chargers mainly the pl2320.

Their website's beyond confusing - listing this model under the "SOLAR" category.

I can't find a rage of AH its suppose to handle but I dont know anyone that used it to maintain a bank - a battery yes, but not a bank.


If any of you fans have more info Id appreciate links, info or any help.


Thanks guys!


UD
 
Is the 200 to 450Ah battery bank going to be deeply cycled...... Discharged to the 50% range?

Is this 200 to 450AH battery bank goibng to be flooded wet marine batteries, or AGm batteries?


If they are going to be discharged to around 75% state of charge (SOC), I would want flooded batteries to have no less than 10 amps per 100AH of capacity available for charging. If they are going to be discharged to 50% SOC I would say no less than 12 to 15 amps per 100AH of cacpacity

If they are AGm batteries I would want no less than 20 amps per 100AH of capacity if deeply cycled.
So basically the deeper the level of disccharge the more important it is to feed them at a higher initial amperage rate. It is not just a matter of lower amperage rates taking more time to get to a higher state of charge The higher amp flow promotes electrolyte flow around and into the plates.


TPPL agm's, thin plate pure lead, well Odyssey says that their batteries need no less than 40 amps per 100AH of capacity available, when the batteries are deeply cycled. Northstar is very siilar to Odyssey, I have one, It responds wonderfully to very high amp charge rates. My alternator can and does feed it over 100 amps when it is well depleted and the engine is spinning 2400+ rpm and my lights and blower motor are off.

If the batteries are never going to be discharged mucch at all, then the maximum amperage rate of the charging source becommes much less important.

People seem to dwell solely on amperage rate of smmart chargers, but as important as that is the max voltage the charger seeks, and once it gets the battery there, how long it holds it there. Smart chargers basically are not designed to 100% fully charge batteries automatically, they are designed to NOT overcharge them. As a result the voltages might be a bit timid, and the durations at which they hold them can be much shorter than actually required as it is much safer to undercharge than it is to overcharge. A hydrometer dipped into the cells when the smart charger first reverts to 'float' or maintenance voltage will,, 85% of the time, reveal the battery is not fully charged. But few ever bother with this reality.

Charging still occurs at float or maintenance voltage, and newer healthier batteries will likely eventually get fully charged at coltages in the low to mid 13's, given enough time( days), but older batteries stand little to no chance of achieving a true full charge at lesser voltages. Again provable if one were to dip the cells with a good turkey baster style hydrometer with electrolyte temperature compensation, like the OTC 4619.

Remember there is no magic circuitry which penetrates a battery and determines full charge and then flashes the green light indicating full charge. Full charge is only verifiable on flooded batteries by using a hydrometer. The green light on 'smart' chargers simply indicates that the charger has decided to not hold the battery at higher voltages anymore.

On AGM batteries full charge can ONLY be determined when the battery is held at absorption voltage, and the amperage required to maintian the battery at that voltage tapers to just 0.5 amps per 100Ah of capacity. Since few to NO 'smart' charging sources actually ask for the AH rating of the battery, they cannot determine full charge, when to stop charging or how long to hold absorption voltage, and their green light is just a guessing liar which mocks the human who believes it

While smart chargers usually stop charging when in the 92 to 95% charged range, this level is only half as good as getting the battery to a true 100% state of charge, but getting the battery to 95% charged is 5x better than 85% charged.

Since I do deep cycle batteries, and ask them to also start engines, I gave up on 'smart' chargers, as they were allowing batteries to prematurely sulfate, as I could not really get them to truly fully charge the battery. I would have to restart them over and over, and this required loading the battery to drop voltage below 12.8 or 12.6v then restarting the charger. Even then multiple restarts would be required and basically the smart charger required a lot more input and babysitting than would a manual charger.

I now use an adjustable voltage power supply. It is capable of 40 amps at any voltage I choose from 13.12 to 19.23.

In general I choose 14.7v, or 13.6v. i hold 14.7v until amps the battery accepts taper to 0.5% of the battery capacity, 0.5 amps per 100Ah of capacity, then lower to 13.6v, or simply unplug powersupply at that point.

This powersupply is a Meanwell rsp-500-15, but I have modified it with a better voltage adjustment potentiometer, and more ventilation and heatsinking. It is not an Automatic charger and can indeed overcharge batteries if set to a higher voltage and left on for too long. A spring wound timer would be of benefit if I were scared of holding too high a voltage for too long. I meant to rig one up but never have in the 5 years I have been using this power supply. There are cheaper adjustable voltage power supplies available like from here;

http://www.megawattpowersupplies.com

These are not designed to output their maximum amperage for hours on end though and would benefit from better ventilation and heatsinking if charging large banks of depleted batteries. The voltage adjustment potentiometer they come with is only rated for 50 cycles too.

Powermax rv converters, which are basically heavier duty battery chargers, well they do have adjustable voltage models. One must provide theier own DC cables to the battery bank.

Progressive dynamics RV converters have a 92xx series of converters, the XX is the max rated amperage output. These employ 3 stage charging, but these models have the option of manual override. Press a button and one can command the converter to seek 14.4v, for 4 more hours, or force it into 13.6 or 13.2 mode. While these converters do not come inside a sexy marketable package, they are very capable and many fold more effective at recharging batteries. PD9245 PD9260 and PD 9270 all can plug into 15 amp household outlets, and output 45, 60 or 70 amps maximum at any of those 3 voltage stages. Absorption voltage is set to 14.4v, but they have 14.8v models available. RV converters have larger 80MM computer fans and much larger heatsinking. Cut off a set of jumper cables, up to 2awg, add a handle and these can be way more effective, and much safer than the giant wheeled chargers of yesteryear. Automatic/smart charging with manual override option.

Powermax RV converters in higher amp ranges are also power factor corrected and they have a model which can output 120 amps, on a 15 amp household circuit. these are pretty much a custom order product though.

I do not like being asked to recommend any consumer grade garage style charger, unless I have actually seen how well it works. When people ask me to recommend a consumer grade garage style charger, I do recommend the pro-logix, only because of reading about them here on Bitog and their seemingly happy owners, but I have no idea/ actual data on just how long they actually hold absorption voltages(14.4 to 14.7v), and this is really key to truly fully charging a battery, and truly fully charging lead acid batteries is absolutely critical, if one is trying to achieve maximum longevity of the battery.

If the battery is going to be charged well outside the 77F temperature at which all battery manufactures list their charging voltage specifications, then a charger with temperature compensation is quite important, to achieve or approach ideal recharging.

Ideal recharging can be taken to extremes, which can get very expensive if one wants to do so automatically, so 'good enough' while subjective, is just that, and especially if the lead acid battery bank is not going to be deeply cycled often, and not exposed to wild temperature swings where one would want to either decrease or increase absorption voltage to match.

But if a 440Ah bank of batteries is going to be deeply cycled, I would not trust any consumer grade garage charger to do a good job, and would spend the extra for an Rv converter with at least 60 amps available.
 
Thanks for all the info.


I've read much the same elsewhere and understand it as well.

I see contention in the numbers between manufacturers claims of what they can and can't accomplish with a given unit.

All of my personal vehicles have quite comprehensive multi stage temperature based on board chargers. Outback/ Xantrex/ Delta volt etc...
I also like prog dynamics - I have many customers with them that are happy.

I never know what's going to roll into the shop - completely dead unrecoverable junk or cherry Rolls coddled from day one.

I need in interim highly capable portable maintainer chargers capable of handling everything soup to nuts and understand that won't be as good as hard mounted point solution - but I cant install those on customer vehicle in for maintenance or those undergoing upgrades or sitting for a while.

I have everything from single battery boats to 48V electric boats, dog grooming vans and the occasional RV in my shop and always need an interim throwdown.

I have big wheel aways If I need giant amps, but those are usually great maintainers and they get in the way.

My current Ctek and Optimate are serving this function well, one or two of my shumachers have been decent other models from them dangerous.



UD

[Linked Image]
 
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Curious to measure its performance - I scrutinized my optimate 7s most recent test

Despite not knowing how big the bank is and it being slightly larger than the unit itself claims to support (400 vs 410)

After 24 hours the optimates 7's " idiot" light came on and went into extended float at 13.6V out of a max of 13.62 according to discover as the max unlimited float voltage allowed for an unlimited time.

This represents a 99.8 at worst and fully charged state. (cant tell as my outback mate only keeps track to 3 decimal places. )

This unit has a max output of 10 amps so way under what most people spec for a complete charge of a bank this large.



Pretty solid performance for a "dumb" throwdown unit with one button then unattended operation.




UD




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Max float .webp
 
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Originally Posted by doitmyself
I have an Interacter Charger on my workplace Genie lift. Not cheap, but would one of their models suit your needs? I found it difficult to navigate their site and/or find technical data. Made in the U.S..

http://interacter.com/products/


I'll go read up- always appreciate learning about a new potential.

Not a lot of data at first glance

-lots of stuff like - "low voltage start" - how low? Optimate is .5 volt.

"temperature compensation" - how? Ambient? a remote sensor? - or in the positive clamp like a ctek 2500?

Definately interesting - a little light on real info -

Thanks!

U Dave
 
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Their FAQ section has some detailed info. Also, you can dig some information out of the owners manual in the Tech. Section. I think that if you want detailed info on a particular charger, one would have to contact them with specific questions. One detail in the FAQ section is that you can open the unit up and adjust the charge voltage and/or current by adjusting "pots" on the circuit board, something that a typical consumer would not do. It also "seems" that they chose an in-between voltage for both standard wet cell and AGM batteries(14.5v) vs. your Optimates having 14.4v and 14.7v. In the owners manual (page 7) it does mention 0.5v as being very discharged and the charger will go into a "blinking yellow light" to get the battery going.

Please share your opinions after you study the site. I.E., the owners manual describes the type of charger as "Full Wave Phase Controlled Rectification", which I have no knowledge of. The FAQ says you can leave the charger attached and on continuously. You can pick out tidbits about temperature compensation and "hibernation mode", which they don't seem to define. The web site sucks for techno geeks seeking information to influence a purchase.
 
Originally Posted by Garak
UncleDave, out of curiosity, I was wondering why your charged "must be plugged in each night"?


The manufacturer of this particular van notates the unit must be plugged in every night for a few reasons

(The pict shows the Mate2 controller for an outback inverter on a dog grooming van - the other number is the OCI/ FCI for the genset.)

1. The system will not fully charge either off the genset or off the alternator in a given day in typical use.
One key to long bank life is a full and complete charge every night to reduce cycle depth.

2. The van has numerous phantom loads on the system that will drain it down fairly quickly if left unplugged.


UD
 
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Originally Posted by doitmyself
Their FAQ section has some detailed info. Also, you can dig some information out of the owners manual in the Tech. Section. I think that if you want detailed info on a particular charger, one would have to contact them with specific questions. One detail in the FAQ section is that you can open the unit up and adjust the charge voltage and/or current by adjusting "pots" on the circuit board, something that a typical consumer would not do. It also "seems" that they chose an in-between voltage for both standard wet cell and AGM batteries(14.5v) vs. your Optimates having 14.4v and 14.7v. In the owners manual (page 7) it does mention 0.5v as being very discharged and the charger will go into a "blinking yellow light" to get the battery going.

Please share your opinions after you study the site. I.E., the owners manual describes the type of charger as "Full Wave Phase Controlled Rectification", which I have no knowledge of. The FAQ says you can leave the charger attached and on continuously. You can pick out tidbits about temperature compensation and "hibernation mode", which they don't seem to define. The web site sucks for techno geeks seeking information to influence a purchase.


It seems the manufacturer knows how to properly charge and that they built a well-featured unit.
They certainly are throwing a log of jargon at the end users.
I'll keep reading but a couple of things keep it from being an easy choice for me and my needs - which aren't typical and may mean nothing to many guys.

Internal dip switch based voltage -vs external button or switch.
Currently, there are over 40 batteries in my shop of every size variety and flavor - having to carry a greenie around or deal with internal switches for an AGM or wet lead is a pain given I need to flip flop constantly.
A non-commercial regular garage guy probably doenst have this frequent need to switch.
...and yes it uses different voltages, but that doenst bug me so much as it is interesting why they are bucking the 14.7 (agm) trend so many other chargers follow.

Not IP 65 rated - or any weatherproofing at all.
I don't need immersion proof chargers, but I need some basic level of moisture and dust resistance - these seem to have none at all.
Chargers make their way out to the desert ( I have an offroad business) and docks and must be able to withstand some light rain or mist.

I don't see a 12 V 20 AMP variant, and the temp compensation they use even on the 30 mp racing charger - is ambient - good that it has it - but at 20 AMP and up - you want a real remote-able sensor or a clamp sensor vs ambient.
The Ctek 2500 has 20 AMPS, a clamp sensor, IP65 rating.

This shop pict gives you a good idea of what I'm working with but is missing the battery bench, as well as various Quads/buggies and small batteries.



UD



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A typical week on the bench.

Customers appreciate our battery service and attempt at recovery/charging.
No point in spending a bunch of dough to get ready for the water only to not be able to actually run the boat.

We tell them - they recovered (for now) or they are wasted.

UD

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Thanks for sharing. I see that you contribute at GJ also.

I sometimes sucks becoming informed about stuff. I installed a "better" (not best) battery backup sump pump last summer and studied about pumps, their chargers, and AGM batteries. If you buy a package, ultimately there are compromises. The Zoeller system I installed has an excellent pump. The charger looks substantial, but I feel that the float voltage is a bit low for AGM batteries. Time will tell.
 
Originally Posted by doitmyself
Thanks for sharing. I see that you contribute at GJ also.

I sometimes sucks becoming informed about stuff. I installed a "better" (not best) battery backup sump pump last summer and studied about pumps, their chargers, and AGM batteries. If you buy a package, ultimately there are compromises. The Zoeller system I installed has an excellent pump. The charger looks substantial, but I feel that the float voltage is a bit low for AGM batteries. Time will tell.



Always up for hearing guys talk about things that work for them.

Im super new at GJ - mainly a lurker.

Good luck with your new sump pump set up- you could probably see what the battery manufacturer specs and measure what you are getting with a meter- then you'd know for sure if it's cutting it?



UD
 
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