Power loss vs. viscosity
- Thread starter kickster
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The engine builders I've known had no interest in motor longevity. More power for the moment was absolute priority. They planned on rebuilding the engines after relatively little use.
On the other hand, I need my non-racing motors to last a long time. I don't need the thickest oils, but the thinnest won't be my choices either. I go for the demanding ACEA A3/B3 or C3. Overkill? Likely, but I don't need that extra ounce of power.
On the other hand, I need my non-racing motors to last a long time. I don't need the thickest oils, but the thinnest won't be my choices either. I go for the demanding ACEA A3/B3 or C3. Overkill? Likely, but I don't need that extra ounce of power.
Agree 100%. Krholm, you don't always get better protection from using an A3 rated oil. That is one of the biggest misconceptions that has started on BITOG IMO. Some cars in fact benefit from lower viscosity oils. Better flow on start up, less friction during high speed/high rpm driving. I wish more people would realize this. UOA data examplifies this as well. 9 times out of 10 what the engine manufacture recommends is best for the vehicle.
Probably the highest rpm and highest output per displacement production vehicles that you can get are sport bikes, where heavier oils seem typical. One needs to look at geography when considering maker's recommendations, as the lighter oils seem to be used in the US, in part because there isn't much that could be called extended high speed driving.
A bit of apples and oranges.... although my inline six diesel only has around a 3000 rpm redline the turbo spins a bit faster, and it typically uses a 15W40 HDEO.
A bit of apples and oranges.... although my inline six diesel only has around a 3000 rpm redline the turbo spins a bit faster, and it typically uses a 15W40 HDEO.
Found this part interesting, since preesure is related to viscosity. Also I wonder in their testing, were the oils brought up to operating temp? or did they just pour them in and pull the lever? That would make a huge difference in the outcome? and could lead to the comment about syntheic vs mineral.
As a side note all the serious big money racers I know run the oil that their engine builder tells them too, and keep the focus on tuning and chassis setup. When your willing to hand someone $30,000 check for a motor, you tend to trust his judgement on what oil to put in it.
Many professionals as builders, doctors and others must take continuing education courses. Mechanics do not. In my experience 99/100 know only old school data. These people have little or no knowledge of modern motor oil use, options, specifications or chemistry. The choices are oversimplified: 30 or 40 wt. oil, straight or multi-grade.
Any wt. oil 20 to 60 can be used in just about any engine. The basic difference may not be all that great. But knowing how to optimize the oil selection to the particular use of a particular vehicle and load pattern, now that takes some knowhow.
Name an oil that will always give the least wear, best gas milage and most power output all at the same time. There is none. We must each select based on our individual needs.
aehaas
Any wt. oil 20 to 60 can be used in just about any engine. The basic difference may not be all that great. But knowing how to optimize the oil selection to the particular use of a particular vehicle and load pattern, now that takes some knowhow.
Name an oil that will always give the least wear, best gas milage and most power output all at the same time. There is none. We must each select based on our individual needs.
aehaas
Only if your engines require ACEA A3/B3 or C3 to operate in the conditions you expose them to does it buy you anything. Otherwise, it's not necessary, and may actually under certain conditions, give you less protection.
I'm guessing there's parts of Texas you haven't been to.
And that whole "foreigners don't use thin oils like us North Americans" arguement will go by the wayside in the near future.
http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000463014.cfm?x=b11,0,w
Finally, choosing an oil for your car based on requirements for a high output "sport bikes" is fool hearty at best. Motorcycles in general have usually had special requirements due to the design of their engines/transmissions.
I put over 55,000 miles on an original Honda 750 Four in the seventies running 5W-30, mostly in Florida while in college. The engine was as good as new until somebody evidently needed it more than I did.
I guess I was born thin.
aehaas
I guess I was born thin.
aehaas
I guess one can never be too rich or too thin.
Buster, I agree with you but most import manufacturers recommend heavier oils in Europe for the same motors. I think that "what the manufacturer suggests" is overstated in this country. Meeting fuel economy standards is an overiding force though the recommended oils will meet the needs of the large majority of drivers here. When I vacationed in USVI the cabby said he used 5w20 in his van going up and down the mountain roads and idling in over 90* heat because it was Fords recommendation. That just doesn't seem right in a high load and oil temp(effectively thinner) condition.
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427Z06,
First, remembering this is a fun forum, many opinions here are of no value. A few here know lubrication really well. However, we are free to give our opinions and that is what we each did.
Now, you cannot tell me with any absolute certainty that using A3/B3/C3 oils will give me any less protection. A 0W-30 A3/B3 (GC) has me very well covered in frigid temperatures anywhere. I'm in Florida, so there is no issue here anyway. I select what I select based on the best information I can come by and that isn't an issue either (keep in mind, a fun forum).
Buster,
Ditto.... No evidence in what you write whatsoever.
Dr.AEHaas,
"Name an oil that will always give the least wear, best gas milage and most power output all at the same time. There is none. We must each select based on our individual needs."
Your's is a completely balanced statement. I have great respect for that.
..
First, remembering this is a fun forum, many opinions here are of no value. A few here know lubrication really well. However, we are free to give our opinions and that is what we each did.
Now, you cannot tell me with any absolute certainty that using A3/B3/C3 oils will give me any less protection. A 0W-30 A3/B3 (GC) has me very well covered in frigid temperatures anywhere. I'm in Florida, so there is no issue here anyway. I select what I select based on the best information I can come by and that isn't an issue either (keep in mind, a fun forum).
Buster,
Ditto.... No evidence in what you write whatsoever.
Dr.AEHaas,
"Name an oil that will always give the least wear, best gas milage and most power output all at the same time. There is none. We must each select based on our individual needs."
Your's is a completely balanced statement. I have great respect for that.
..
Chill, krholm. Those here that know me know I like to have fun too. But when I make a statement as fact, I can back it up 99% of the time with references, if requested.
As far as a A3/B3 rating being the end all of ratings, let me humbly suggest to go back to your references and reread what that rating entails.
Many 20w50s are rated A3/B3. Do you think that running a A3/B3 rated 20w50 in an engine spec'd for 5w30 during winter in Winnipeg is going to give you more protection?
Recall you said "I go for the demanding ACEA A3/B3 or C3." without any other qualifications.
As far as a A3/B3 rating being the end all of ratings, let me humbly suggest to go back to your references and reread what that rating entails.
Many 20w50s are rated A3/B3. Do you think that running a A3/B3 rated 20w50 in an engine spec'd for 5w30 during winter in Winnipeg is going to give you more protection?
Recall you said "I go for the demanding ACEA A3/B3 or C3." without any other qualifications.
I think it's obvious, and the above reference further substantiates it, that it's strictly a marketing, availability, psychological preference.
The rest of your comments in that post are too overgeneralized to be of any use.
Ford and Honda seem to be the ones using thinner oils like a 5W20, and although primarily in the US they seem to have started using it in some other regions. They're also companies that don't seem to have many turbos in their line, at least in the US. If either do offer turbos what kind of oil do they use ?
Looking at something like a Honda Civic, which is a common car to be modified in the US, when someone puts something like a turbo on one do they typically continue to use 5W20 ? Some state that the engines are designed to be used with 5W20 (although special ones must be built or selected for the US market as both companies seem to use heaver oils overseas), so does one continue to use a thinner oil with a higher output engine that will tend to be driven harder ? I'll guess not, unless someone is willing to sacrifice engine life for maximum power output.
Generalizations help to navigate thru some of the ideology:
Most engines that use turbos seem to use heavier oils.
Some of the highest rpm produstion engines available are on sport bikes, and they seem to use heavier oils.
Turbodiesels use heavier oils, as typically high torque and long life are expected.
Most countries outside of the US seem to use heavier oils, including companies that use thinner oils in the US.
Thinner oils are being used primarily for either maximum power output where long engine life isn't required (thin oils aren't typically used for endurance racing), for increased fuel mileage, or for colder weather.
Looking at something like a Honda Civic, which is a common car to be modified in the US, when someone puts something like a turbo on one do they typically continue to use 5W20 ? Some state that the engines are designed to be used with 5W20 (although special ones must be built or selected for the US market as both companies seem to use heaver oils overseas), so does one continue to use a thinner oil with a higher output engine that will tend to be driven harder ? I'll guess not, unless someone is willing to sacrifice engine life for maximum power output.
Generalizations help to navigate thru some of the ideology:
Most engines that use turbos seem to use heavier oils.
Some of the highest rpm produstion engines available are on sport bikes, and they seem to use heavier oils.
Turbodiesels use heavier oils, as typically high torque and long life are expected.
Most countries outside of the US seem to use heavier oils, including companies that use thinner oils in the US.
Thinner oils are being used primarily for either maximum power output where long engine life isn't required (thin oils aren't typically used for endurance racing), for increased fuel mileage, or for colder weather.
1sttruck, you make me laugh. Even an armchair philosopher would have a field day with the number of invalid arguements you make.
"Finally, choosing an oil for your car based on requirements for a high output "sport bikes" is fool hearty at best. Motorcycles in general have usually had special requirements due to the design of their engines/transmissions."
The point is that one doesn't need a thin oil for high rpm motors, where the 1 liter sport bikes are running 10k to 12k redlines while the midsize sport bikes are hitting 15k to over 17k rpm, and thicker oils do just fine. Thicker oils also seem to typically be used in turbo applications, diesel or otherwise, where the turbos seem to spin 10k or so on the low side.
If one is selecting an oil for maximum protection the oils tend to be thicker. If you're looking for maximum power output and aren't concerned about engine life then a thinner oil is commonly used, and if mileage is more important than protection a thinner oil is also used. I've found Ford online owner's manuals on Ford sites that recommened thicker oils for vehicles used outside of the US, which seems to be common practice.
The point is that one doesn't need a thin oil for high rpm motors, where the 1 liter sport bikes are running 10k to 12k redlines while the midsize sport bikes are hitting 15k to over 17k rpm, and thicker oils do just fine. Thicker oils also seem to typically be used in turbo applications, diesel or otherwise, where the turbos seem to spin 10k or so on the low side.
If one is selecting an oil for maximum protection the oils tend to be thicker. If you're looking for maximum power output and aren't concerned about engine life then a thinner oil is commonly used, and if mileage is more important than protection a thinner oil is also used. I've found Ford online owner's manuals on Ford sites that recommened thicker oils for vehicles used outside of the US, which seems to be common practice.
I don't think they're invalid at all. He said himself they are broad generalizations. There are different ways to come to conclusions about things. You can start from the bottom and work up, with knowledge of the basics, or you can start from the top and work down, looking for patterns and correlations. Einstein, Darwin, Shakespeare are a few off the top of my head that I can think of who did great things with that kind of thinking. Nothing wrong with it.
- Glenn
- Glenn
Einstein must be spinning in his grave reading the above. Jonathan Swift comes to mind here.
"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place."
A collection of (assumed-to-be) facts, is nothing but dogma. Dogma stoutly resists subsequent displacement by reason.
"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place."
A collection of (assumed-to-be) facts, is nothing but dogma. Dogma stoutly resists subsequent displacement by reason.
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