Porsche Engineering:Going Downhill?

[mpvue]

I had a few GTI's back in the day, fun little cars. but my saturn SC2 was just as fun and had more power. mention that to a Vdubhead and he'll cough up his lunch. there is a view that german cars are always superior to lowly domestics.
at one point I was also depbating between a supercharged saturn ION red line and a new VW GTI. same hp, similar cost, size, etc. a friend who owns a tuner shop couldn't understand how I could compare the 2, like the ION doesn't even deserve to be compared to a mighty VW.
I still like VW's, but I'm not under the delusion that they are superior, I just like the way they drive.

 

[paulo57509]

While I never have owned a German car, I've owned a few other things that were either made or designed in Germany.

My Braun/Oral-B electric tooth brush was defective out of the box. It works, but the 2 minute timer will go off after 30 seconds.

The batteries in my Braun shaver stopped holding a charge after two months.

I've owned a few Blaupunkt car stereos. The casseted mechanism on one stopped transporting the cassette after about a year. The other one lost the left channel after 3 months.

I will say that the Porsche dealership took care of my friend. Knowing that the early Boxters had air bag warning system issues, he waited until Porsche claimed to have fixed the problem. After he took delivery of his car (it had to be ordered it from the factory) the air bag warning light started to come on after 6 months. The car was in and out of the shop constantly. IIRC, they replaced the steering column, the entire air bag wiring harness, consulted the engineering group back in Germany, etc.

The day my friend asked me if he should look into the CA lemon law (I would have done this months before), the dealership called him and suggested that they get him a replacement car under the lemon law.

 

[MaximaGuy]

German auto makes have the worst electrical engg dept of all auto makers. They seriously need to get a crack team from Japan to address their numerous goofups from steering colmn, ODB2 ports locking up, window motors failing numerous times within warranty (they would continue to be owners joys passed warranty) etc.

 

[Kestas]

One of the differences between German and Japanese automotive engineering is that the Japanese are much better at making reliable electronics and electrical connectors. This comes from decades of matured engineering with their electronics industry, as we all know with the Japanese electronics we buy. Considering the most aggravating car problems are now related to electricals, sensors, and electronics, and not mechanical issues, this has a large bearing on the reliability of vehicles today.

 

[brianl703]

Ironically enough, the company that made three model years of biodegradable (the insulation cannot handle the engine heat and falls apart) engine harnesses for the Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique is none other than Yazaki, a Japanese wiring harness and connector manufacturer.

It doesn't matter how good the connectors are if the insulation falls off the wires.

My Saab has Delphi harnesses. It remains to be seen if these will start falling apart 5 years into the car's life--but I doubt it.

 

[d00df00d]

My '96 BMW M3 is treating me better at 149k miles than my old '95 Nissan Maxima did at 120k. The Maxima was costing me almost as much to keep on the road than maintenance PLUS loan payments for my M3.

My friend's '05 M3 has been quite solid for 3 years and 70,000 miles -- even after he busted a driveshaft after several consecutive drag runs (some of them questionably executed) and drove the 150 miles home on *one driveshaft*. The diff was 100% fine after a fluid change. The few serious problems he's had have related to his modifications and lots of track use.

My old friend's dad's BMW 330xi never had a serious problem in 3-4 years. He sold it to the father of my friend with the '05 M3 3 years ago or so, and it is still virtually trouble-free.

There was just an article somewhere that said the current BMW 3-series is the most reliable car in the UK.

I will agree that Japanese electronics are better in general, but if you guys insist that German cars have such poor reliability then I must be living in a parallel universe.

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I will agree that Japanese electronics are better in general, but if you guys insist that German cars have such poor reliability then I must be living in a parallel universe.


The "fog of perception" clouds many people's minds. People tend to believe what they want to believe. Some will simply perpetuate what they want others to believe.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: moribundman
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I will agree that Japanese electronics are better in general, but if you guys insist that German cars have such poor reliability then I must be living in a parallel universe.


The "fog of perception" clouds many people's minds. People tend to believe what they want to believe. Some will simply perpetuate what they want others to believe.


Incredibly well put mori.

FWIW, my sister's E34 535i has had no wiring problems, and now has close to 400,000Km on it.

The wiring on my Ford products has been fine as well; though the Lincoln now needs some lock actuators.

Two of my friends that own Jeep Grand Cherokee's have noticeable wiring issues.......

 

[brianl703]

The wiring on my 1988 Mustang GT was, in 2002, in better shape than the wiring on my 1995 Contour. I replaced the engine harnesses in the 1995 Contour which cost about $550 for the parts.

At present the wiring on my 1988 Mustang GT still shows no signs of deterioration.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
but if you guys insist that German cars have such poor reliability then I must be living in a parallel universe.

I've had experience with two German cars so far: '01 A4 and '02 530i.

The A4 was practically trouble-free for the first 4 years and 40k miles (at which point I had to sell it).

The 530i on the other hand has had its fair share of issues at 4 years and 35k miles, which is soon after I bought it. To name a few:

• thrust arm bushings,
• thermostat
• dead pixels in the radio (previous owner already replaced instrument cluster due to same issue),
• blower fan resistor,
• passenger seat electric controls,
• passenger seat occupancy sensor (results in airbag light being always lit up), and most recently
• valve cover gasket at 50k miles.

Granted, it's not a fair comparison as I didn't buy it new, but from what I've been able to find out, all of these issues are very common on this car, which at one point was crowned by one auto publication as one of the most reliable German cars to ever come to America.

Maybe it's just the luck of the draw or karma or whatever you want to call it. In any case, it would not stop me from buying another European car since my experience with a US-made Accord wasn't exactly stellar either, so I am well aware that no manufacturer is perfect. At least the 530i is more fun to drive.

 

[mpvue]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
The wiring on my 1988 Mustang GT was, in 2002, in better shape than the wiring on my 1995 Contour. I replaced the engine harnesses in the 1995 Contour which cost about $550 for the parts.

At present the wiring on my 1988 Mustang GT still shows no signs of deterioration.

that's a particular issue w/ the V6 contours; my friend had the same issue w/ his. the mechanic said the engine is so tight in there, the wiring gets hot and brittle. it's sad, the engine was still running great, body not bad, but it just wasn't worth it to fix, esp approaching 150K.

 

[crw]

This continuing argument reminds me of the "fat guy and the ugly guy". The ugly guy says, "You're fat." The fat guy says, "I can diet, but you'll always be ugly."

In this case the german auto can be repaired, but the appliance will always be a boring drive.

 

[crw]

Originally Posted By: mpvue
I still like VW's, but I'm not under the delusion that they are superior, I just like the way they drive.


That's exactly it. They AREN'T superior in reliability... but "you like the way they drive." Couldn't have said it better myself.

The day I bought my VW, I drove an ION just before that. The ION with 50K miles felt floppy, but the VW felt new with 80K.

 

[Tornado Red]

Originally Posted By: crw
This continuing argument reminds me of the "fat guy and the ugly guy". The ugly guy says, "You're fat." The fat guy says, "I can diet, but you'll always be ugly."

In this case the german auto can be repaired, but the appliance will always be a boring drive.

I considered several other cars before I bought my Golf. Some cost more, some less. Most likely none of them would have lasted this long -- the normal things that go wrong with them at 120k-150k miles would have cost more than the resale value at that point.

A car worth fixing will always last longer than a throw-away car, It might cost more to maintain during the first 100k or 200k miles, but it will still be a joy to drive at 300k or 400k miles.

 

[ourfamo4]

Originally Posted By: crw
Originally Posted By: mpvue
I still like VW's, but I'm not under the delusion that they are superior, I just like the way they drive.


That's exactly it. They AREN'T superior in reliability... but "you like the way they drive." Couldn't have said it better myself.

The day I bought my VW, I drove an ION just before that. The ION with 50K miles felt floppy, but the VW felt new with 80K.

My 99 Passat with 140k miles is quieter going down the road than most domestic with half as many miles. Now I will say I've had great luck with many VW's, but also have seen may ragged ones. It always comes down to maintenance, these are not Japanese "appliances" nor do the drive or "feel" the same. :2cents:

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: mpvue

that's a particular issue w/ the V6 contours; my friend had the same issue w/ his. the mechanic said the engine is so tight in there, the wiring gets hot and brittle. it's sad, the engine was still running great, body not bad, but it just wasn't worth it to fix, esp approaching 150K.


It affects the 4-cylinder contours too, but the damage isn't as obvious and takes longer to happen. (You have to closely examine the engine coolant temp sensor connector to see it, when it first starts).

The issue arises from their use of PVC insulation. You can tell that it's PVC insulation by applying a flame to it and observing that it burns. It may self-extinguish when you remove the flame but the insulation is obviously burned/charred.

The correct insulation, crosslinked polyethylene, does not burn when you apply a flame to it. After you wipe the soot off you cannot tell that you had applied flame to that wire.

I did the flame test on the replacement wiring harnesses and yes, they are made with the correct crosslinked insulation, not PVC.

 

[BrianWC]

Originally Posted By: brianl703

My Saab has Delphi harnesses. It remains to be seen if these will start falling apart 5 years into the car's life--but I doubt it.


My 2001 doesn't have any electrical/electronic-related issues.

 

[Steve S]

I like the 911 Porsches. The only ones I would dream about. The turbo model especially!!!

 

[NJC]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
One of the differences between German and Japanese automotive engineering is that the Japanese are much better at making reliable electronics and electrical connectors.

My Volvo recently died without warning. I eventually traced to a loose main pump (Bosch) connection. It's a pressed cylindrical fitting with a plastic clip "jacket".

I'm used to Japanese electrical design and doubt I'd see such [censored] on my Hondas.

 

[BGK]

Volvo's are notorious for electrical problems; I believe Ford has actually made them more reliable. Volvo (and GM with Saab, I bet) is one of the few mainline European brands that is trying to close a large number of it's dealers. Poor sales and terrible resale value can't be made up by safety hype.

I have an eight year old Saturn L series purchased new and other than a couple of bad door lock solenoids and an oxygen sensor when new and some light bulb sockets I have had almost zero problems, electrical or otherwise with it and it's filled with Bosch parts.

I'll take European driving pleasure (VW, BMW, Audi) over dull Japanese vehicles anytime.