Point me towards my first ceramic coating

[SC Maintenance]

Think of it as how you used to spray paint a car. The fresh metal surface had to be clean of all oils, grime, dust, etc. otherwise the paint would be flawed and would not last long in those spots. Same principle here. Why seal in contaminants that will affect the durability of the ceramic? Granted, you have a vehicle that you want protected better, but it in not great shape to begin with. Using even a cheap clay mitt will help out (and maybe do it once a year???) and then put on a product that will at least last a year or is very easy to apply twice a year. I use Turtle Wax Hybrid Ceramic Spray. Spray on it sections and wipe off. Easy.

I very much appreciate your description, but this is actually part of my issue. The first thing a bodyman will do on a surface he is going to repaint is clean it with a solvent. Even a dedicated abrasive isn't going to lift oil / grease / wax and such contaminants. In fact it will just grind some of them into the paint. The equivalent to the solvent seems to be these special wax removing washes.

I believe a clay bar will "lift" - more like shear out - stuck on things, but I still am having a difficult time thinking it can possibly be that crucial for a topcoat thats going to last 6 months at best.

Washing with a clay mitt sounds like possibly some happy middle ground?

 

[The Critic]

I very much appreciate your description, but this is actually part of my issue. The first thing a bodyman will do on a surface he is going to repaint is clean it with a solvent. Even a dedicated abrasive isn't going to lift oil / grease / wax and such contaminants. In fact it will just grind some of them into the paint. The equivalent to the solvent seems to be these special wax removing washes.

I believe a clay bar will "lift" - more like shear out - stuck on things, but I still am having a difficult time thinking it can possibly be that crucial for a topcoat thats going to last 6 months at best.

Washing with a clay mitt sounds like possibly some happy middle ground?

If you're trying to repaint a cabinet but the surface is scattered with sand, do you expect good adhesion and even coverage from the new paint?

It is the same idea.

If you're hell bent on not using clay to prep the paint, maybe try a prep solvent such as Prep-Sol:
https://products.axaltacs.com/dcat/us/en/dr/product/3919S.html?desktop=true

The clay mitts are excellent for an "express detail" but really do not do a very good job of removing all contaminants. The only one that does a good job, IMO, is the Meguiar's Aggressive Clay Bar:
https://meguiarsdirect.com/products...JQ0rO3xR0_xqj1j8aKxNPMwlgp75uqSzwvJGgoc0h4-Pd

 

[SC Maintenance]

If you're trying to repaint a cabinet but the surface is scattered with sand, do you expect good adhesion and even coverage from the new paint?

It is the same idea.

If you're hell bent on not using clay to prep the paint, maybe try a prep solvent such as Prep-Sol:
https://products.axaltacs.com/dcat/us/en/dr/product/3919S.html?desktop=true

The clay mitts are excellent for an "express detail" but really do not do a very good job of removing all contaminants. The only one that does a good job, IMO, is the Meguiar's Aggressive Clay Bar:
https://meguiarsdirect.com/products...JQ0rO3xR0_xqj1j8aKxNPMwlgp75uqSzwvJGgoc0h4-Pd

No one is talking about trying to put stuff on a dirty car. Thats what the wax / grease removing solvent wash is for. None of the clay bar advertisements promise this. They say the clay bar is to remove embedded particles. That makes sense. Except I don't care if some brake dust stays embedded.

You can't lift stuck on chemicals by rubbing something on top. Its like rubbing a coffee stain on a shirt with a rag. Not going to do anything but spread it around. You need a solvent to lift it.


I have painted cars. I actually painted some in an old barn. Surface was perfect at start. By the time it was done it had tons of dust just from ambient in it. Paint never lifted, looked fine from 15 feet away.

 

[Sumboodie]

I had headers done ~20 years ago. Can't say it was really worth it.

 

[The Critic]

No one is talking about trying to put stuff on a dirty car. Thats what the wax / grease removing solvent wash is for. None of the clay bar advertisements promise this. They say the clay bar is to remove embedded particles. That makes sense. Except I don't care if some brake dust stays embedded.

You can't lift stuck on chemicals by rubbing something on top. Its like rubbing a coffee stain on a shirt with a rag. Not going to do anything but spread it around. You need a solvent to lift it.


I have painted cars. I actually painted some in an old barn. Surface was perfect at start. By the time it was done it had tons of dust just from ambient in it. Paint never lifted, looked fine from 15 feet away.

Clay is a form of abrasive. Abrasives will abrade away contaminants on the surface -- whether it is rail dust, dirt or wax.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Clay is a form of abrasive. Abrasives will abrade away contaminants on the surface -- whether it is rail dust, dirt or wax.

It won't abrade away a wax or oil. That is why the body shop cleans the panel with something like you linked before, prior to doing anything else to the car - even if there going to wet sand the entire car.

The other contaminants - yes.

 

[The Critic]

It won't abrade away a wax or oil. That is why the body shop cleans the panel with something like you linked before, prior to doing anything else to the car - even if there going to wet sand the entire car.

The other contaminants - yes.

Depending on the type of wax or coating on the surface, clay will remove it. I lost count of how many vehicles I have clayed using aggressive clay where the vehicle no longer beads once I was done.

It is no different than machine polishing paint that still has wax or sealant on the surface. Once complete, any wax or sealant will be gone.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Depending on the type of wax or coating on the surface, clay will remove it. I lost count of how many vehicles I have clayed using aggressive clay where the vehicle no longer beads once I was done.

It is no different than machine polishing paint that still has wax or sealant on the surface. Once complete, any wax or sealant will be gone.

If you use a mechanical abrasive - whether a bar or polisher - on a wax, some may get scraped off the top, and some will get pushed even further into the finish in any indentations or surface imperfections.

So in the case if I am simply going to apply another coat of something wax like - probably doesn't matter. And as you said, the purpose is to have the water bead up and a smoother surface will help this.

But that doesn't mean you have actually removed it. You removed some and left some. Thats why even the clay bar folks recommend a solvent wash before the clay bar, and why the body shop will 100% use a hard solvent on any surface there going to refinish - because in their case its a huge problem - paint won't stick to wax / oil.

Which brings me back to square 1. If I am not looking for a perfect surface I don't think it will matter. I will use a clay mitt however - seems like no extra work - I need to wash with the solvent detergent anyway.

 

[The Critic]

If you use a mechanical abrasive - whether a bar or polisher - on a wax, some may get scraped off the top, and some will get pushed even further into the finish in any indentations or surface imperfections.

So in the case if I am simply going to apply another coat of something wax like - probably doesn't matter. And as you said, the purpose is to have the water bead up and a smoother surface will help this.

But that doesn't mean you have actually removed it. You removed some and left some. Thats why even the clay bar folks recommend a solvent wash before the clay bar, and why the body shop will 100% use a hard solvent on any surface there going to refinish - because in their case its a huge problem - paint won't stick to wax / oil.

Which brings me back to square 1. If I am not looking for a perfect surface I don't think it will matter. I will use a clay mitt however - seems like no extra work - I need to wash with the solvent detergent anyway.

While your description may be academically correct, I can promise you that real-world experience from coating many, many vehicles has resulted in a differing outcome. Others will likely agree with me -- clay plus machine polishing will definitely remove all existing surface protection.

Perhaps the localized heat from the mechanical abrasives dissolves the sealant or wax?

Regardless, it is clear that you have made up your mind on how this process is supposed to work and instead of being open to testing some of the provided feedback, you have spent your time into defending your beliefs.

 

[SC Maintenance]

While your description may be academically correct, I can promise you that real-world experience from coating many, many vehicles has resulted in a differing outcome. Others will likely agree with me -- clay plus machine polishing will definitely remove all existing surface protection.

Perhaps the localized heat from the mechanical abrasives dissolves the sealant or wax?

Regardless, it is clear that you have made up your mind on how this process is supposed to work and instead of being open to testing some of the provided feedback, you have spent your time into defending your beliefs.

No, I said in post 1 in no uncertain terms I was not going to clay bar.

Many people in fact did recommend different products, which was very helpful and I am appreciative.

But as expected a bunch of people tell me I have to clay bar - even making up benefits that even the clay bar literature itself doesn't promise. All the clay bar literature I have read promises nothing other than removing embedded contaminants like brake dust and similar I guess. Some how this magical "ceramic" coating that isn't ceramic will somehow not stick to embedded brake dust?

Multiple people tell me I am doomed. Having worked in a body shop and sprayed some paint, I doubt it. But I will let you know either way.

 

[Sam_Julier]

Griot’s 3 in 1 Ceramic wax after a wash and clay bar. Second coat of the spray 24 hours later.

As @Cujet says the second coat 24 hours later is key. In my experience it will streak if the microfiber towel is not fresh. I have at least a dozen on hand.

It protects my daughter’s Volvo, parked on the street in Brooklyn and NYC for 3-4 months.

 

[trd1zz]

clay plus machine polishing will definitely remove all existing surface protection.

And remove / damage any existing and already compromised clear coat. This is not a new car we are talking about.

 

[thastinger]

No, I said in post 1 in no uncertain terms I was not going to clay bar.

Many people in fact did recommend different products, which was very helpful and I am appreciative.

But as expected a bunch of people tell me I have to clay bar - even making up benefits that even the clay bar literature itself doesn't promise. All the clay bar literature I have read promises nothing other than removing embedded contaminants like brake dust and similar I guess. Some how this magical "ceramic" coating that isn't ceramic will somehow not stick to embedded brake dust?

Multiple people tell me I am doomed. Having worked in a body shop and sprayed some paint, I doubt it. But I will let you know either way.

I think the clay mitts will do what you are looking to do and you can use it while you wash the vehicle, no second clay bar process required. I'm sure you will be able to feel the before and after difference with your hand.
Give the dawn and clay mitt a try on a lower read quarter panel as a test spot, there won't be anything left on the paint. I'm no professional detailer and don't have all day to detail a car and I'm not spending the money to have someone else do it either. The above process has worked well for me to strip paint, pick your poison on the ceramic, I've just never had good results with the spray on stuff.

 

[Cujet]

I think the discussion about protecting paint is misplaced. Clear coat will fail over time, especially if in the sun. The 2003 X-Type finally had the clear coat fail on the roof. Which I sanded and re-cleared. Garaged about half it's life. But let's be honest, nowhere on the car is the clear coat in perfect shape, despite years of good care. Areas that I used a clay bar (on the hood) are not worse off. And the hood is still original paint.

Sun exposure seems to be the critical aspect of paint life. Everything else is noise. 23 years old (made in 2002) Florida car, 236,000 miles.

 

[Nessism1]

@SC Maintenance At this point, you have spent more time posting about how you are NOT going to clay bar, then it would have taken to clay bar the vehicle in the first place! Ha ha. Good luck with your project!

 

[trd1zz]

I think the discussion about protecting paint is misplaced. Clear coat will fail over time, especially if in the sun. The 2003 X-Type finally had the clear coat fail on the roof. Which I sanded and re-cleared. Garaged about half it's life. But let's be honest, nowhere on the car is the clear coat in perfect shape, despite years of good care. Areas that I used a clay bar (on the hood) are not worse off. And the hood is still original paint.

Sun exposure seems to be the critical aspect of paint life. Everything else is noise. 23 years old (made in 2002) Florida car, 236,000 miles.

Any abrasive worked into the paint is going to damage the clear coat. It's just how these products work. You can only do this so many times. On an old car, even doing it 1 time might be too much.

That said, in my experience clay bar only removes "stuck on" particles / residues that the wash mitt won't remove. So a clay bar is the least aggressive approach beyond the general wash and wax.

But, applying a compound or even a polish with a machine / orbital to an old car with questionable paint / clear to begin with? Good luck.

 

[MaximumMini]

I think the discussion about protecting paint is misplaced. Clear coat will fail over time, especially if in the sun. The 2003 X-Type finally had the clear coat fail on the roof. Which I sanded and re-cleared. Garaged about half it's life. But let's be honest, nowhere on the car is the clear coat in perfect shape, despite years of good care. Areas that I used a clay bar (on the hood) are not worse off. And the hood is still original paint.
Sun exposure seems to be the critical aspect of paint life. Everything else is noise. 23 years old (made in 2002) Florida car, 236,000 miles.

Yep.
1). Sun exposure
2). Scratches in the finish
3). Acidic / Caustic solutions in contact with the finish

Keeping a vehicle with a fresh finish in a garage will protect the finish far better than the same vehicle facing the elements daily no matter what you put on it.
I wouldn't use anything that doesn't offer top notch UV protection.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I think the discussion about protecting paint is misplaced. Clear coat will fail over time, especially if in the sun. The 2003 X-Type finally had the clear coat fail on the roof. Which I sanded and re-cleared. Garaged about half it's life. But let's be honest, nowhere on the car is the clear coat in perfect shape, despite years of good care. Areas that I used a clay bar (on the hood) are not worse off. And the hood is still original paint.

Sun exposure seems to be the critical aspect of paint life. Everything else is noise. 23 years old (made in 2002) Florida car, 236,000 miles.

The part I didn't bring up because of the deepening rabbit hole is that everything, including your clear coat oxidizes. So the primary reason your car looks better when you clay bar is you have removed that top layer of oxidization. Except it will now start oxidizing again. Presumably your ceramic / wax layer will stop that so long as you keep it up. But an oxidized layer is simply another protective layer. Not 100% sure I wish to remove it?

So I may or may not even use the clay Mitt - haven't decided. I might just wash it really well, remove any stuck on stuff I can find with a bug sponge, and coat a couple times with a cheap "ceramic" coat. In a few months I will either get a bunch of "I told you so" or there will be some relatively unhappy / unbelieving people.

 

[Texchappy]

Any abrasive worked into the paint is going to damage the clear coat. It's just how these products work. You can only do this so many times. On an old car, even doing it 1 time might be too much.

That said, in my experience clay bar only removes "stuck on" particles / residues that the wash mitt won't remove. So a clay bar is the least aggressive approach beyond the general wash and wax.

But, applying a compound or even a polish with a machine / orbital to an old car with questionable paint / clear to begin with? Good luck.

True but modern polishes (especially the fine grit ones) used with a DA have a lot of latitude. I agree that thus is probably not what SCMaintenance needs. @SC Maintenance, if you’re not doing a full glass bottle coating then I think you’re ok not doing any clay type product. I still think it would be beneficial but it’s not a hill worth dying on.

Of the products I mentioned, I’ll point out that Optimum Polymer Technology No Rinse wash & wax is advertised as having uv blocking ability. That’s why I use it in my old convertible. Couldn’t hurt in your situation with the beginning of clear coat failure. I think it’s available on Amazon.

 

[trd1zz]

True but modern polishes (especially the fine grit ones) used with a DA have a lot of latitude. I agree that thus is probably not what SCMaintenance needs. @SC Maintenance, if you’re not doing a full glass bottle coating then I think you’re ok not doing any clay type product. I still think it would be beneficial but it’s not a hill worth dying on.

Of the products I mentioned, I’ll point out that Optimum Polymer Technology No Rinse wash & wax is advertised as having uv blocking ability. That’s why I use it in my old convertible. Couldn’t hurt in your situation with the beginning of clear coat failure. I think it’s available on Amazon.

Yeah, Meguiar's Ultimate Polish is supposedly one of the least abrasive polishes out there. Still a risk though. Reality is on a car with failing or failed clear coat the battle is already lost. You're just buying time.

I'd rather slap layer of wax on top of any swirl marks / water spots / residues that don't come out after a wash, than attempt removal of those defects. Maintaining whatever is left of the clear coat is the priority at this point. Abrasives will do more harm than good IMO. Frankly, I think many of these compounds / polishes should come with a disclaimer / warning as just reading the label leads you to believe there are no consequences to their use.