Pirelli AS Plus 3 or Michelin Defender LTX MS 2

Still leaning towards the Michelin's. Can't seem to find many people who dislike them for ride quality and tread life.
I had one bad experience many generations ago with the MS/2 getting dry rot and a sidewall failure and breaking outer tread blocks. Several sets of Michelin Defender MS later, nothing but good things to say about them, so I think they must have resolved that compound issue.
One thing I noticed with the MS/2 was that there are some front to back rubber between the outer shoulder tread blocks at about 50% of the tread depth.
View attachment 274631
I was curious how this would affect tire performance when the tread wears down to those sections, since then the outer tread blocks would be separated from the inner tread by a solid line of rubber.
Can't help but wonder what the performance will be like with this newer design at 50% of its life.
How deep is the siping on the outside tread? Do they go all the way down to the wear bars?

My wife's 2024 Highlander came with Premier LTX - the siping on the front tire was gone by 3,500 miles - rotated them at 4K - now at 4.5K the outside siping is all gone on all 4 tires. I don't even see why they bothered putting it on.

This is one reason I have been looking at brands other than Michelin.
The Primacy LTX on my wife's RDX were not good - the Defender LTX M/S were wearing fast but we traded it begore they were worn out. These Premier LTX are the worse set of Michelin tires I have ever had - they should be ashamed to have their name on them.
 
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Per Discount Tire the Defender LTX M/S are being discontinued - Tire Rack also shows them as a close out.

The only other LTX I can find is Primacy LTX -

The old Defender M/S was rated 800AA
The new Defender M/S2 is rated 820BA

The traction rating got dropped to a B - they gave up some traction but both tires are still rated as 70K mile tires.

Sort of a letdown dropping to a B - I wonder if bumping the load index to 116 caused some loss in traction.

I think tire companies have been upping the load ratings so they can say the tire is rated for EVs. Since those batteries are heavy they need a higher rating.

This is just a guess on my part.

Whatever the tradeoff was - I would rather have better traction - without any doubt for me that is #1 thing a tire needs.

But of course with reasonable tread life.
I wasn't talking about the Defender LTX M/S tires, but the LTX M/S2 tires (note the lack of Defender in the name). These tires have a 720 AA rating. For my tire size it still shows them available as LTX M/S2, and Defender LTX M/S2.

LTX M/S2

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=LTX+M/S2&partnum=755HR0LTXMS2V2&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

Defender LTX M/S2

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Defender+LTX+M/S2&partnum=755TR0DLTX2XL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes
 
Per Discount Tire the Defender LTX M/S are being discontinued - Tire Rack also shows them as a close out.

The only other LTX I can find is Primacy LTX -

The old Defender M/S was rated 800AA
The new Defender M/S2 is rated 820BA

The traction rating got dropped to a B - they gave up some traction but both tires are still rated as 70K mile tires.

Sort of a letdown dropping to a B - I wonder if bumping the load index to 116 caused some loss in traction.

I think tire companies have been upping the load ratings so they can say the tire is rated for EVs. Since those batteries are heavy they need a higher rating.

This is just a guess on my part.

Whatever the tradeoff was - I would rather have better traction - without any doubt for me that is #1 thing a tire needs.

But of course with reasonable tread life.

Allow me to try to fill in the gaps:

Perhaps the reason the traction grade dropped is because the Europeans have a wet traction test that is different than US. The European version is an ABS test, where the US version is a locked wheel test. It is said that the US version is more or less a test of the tread compound and not a test of the tire - and I agree. So I wouldn't be too concerned about the drop in traction grade.

Load ratings on tires: The load rating on a tire is prescribed by tire standardizing organizations. It is not subject to change by the tire manufacturers (sort of).

Put another way, if a tire manufacturer makes a tire in a given size, the load rating is what the tire standardizIng organization says it is, and it is the same regardless of who manufacturers the tire, and it is the same whether the tire was designed for an EV or not.

The complication here, is that there is a slight difference in tire standardizing organizations. For example, the Europeans use the metric system, where the US uses the English measurement system - and since both groups like to use round units, the resulting load rating is ever so slightly different. The tires aren't different, but the way the load rating is calculated is different.

If you want more info, visit my webpage: Barry's Tire Tech: Tire Standardizing Organizations
 
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I wasn't talking about the Defender LTX M/S tires, but the LTX M/S2 tires (note the lack of Defender in the name). These tires have a 720 AA rating. For my tire size it still shows them available as LTX M/S2, and Defender LTX M/S2.

LTX M/S2

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=LTX+M/S2&partnum=755HR0LTXMS2V2&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

Defender LTX M/S2

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Defender+LTX+M/S2&partnum=755TR0DLTX2XL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes
I am so focused on my size I missed it.
 
Allow me to try to fill in the gaps:

Perhaps the reason the traction grade dropped is because the Europeans have a wet traction test that is different than US. The European version is an ABS test, where the US version is a locked wheel test. It is said that the US version is more or less a test of the tread compound and not a test of the tire - and I agree. So I wouldn't be too concerned about the drop in traction grade.

Load ratings on tires: The load rating on a tire is prescribed by tire standardizing organizations. It is not subject to change by the tire manufacturers (sort of).

Put another way, if a tire manufacturer makes a tire in a given size, the load rating is what the tire standardizIng organization says it is, and it is the same regardless of who manufacturers the tire, and it is the same whether the tire was designed for an EV or not.

The complication here, is that there is a slight difference in tire standardizing organizations. For example, the Europeans use the metric system, where the US uses the English measurement system - and since both groups like to use round units, the resulting load rating is ever so slightly different. The tires aren't different, but the way the load rating is calculated is different.

If you want more info, visit my webpage: Barry's Tire Tech: Tire Standardizing Organizations

The test Tire Rack did on the Defender LTX M/S2 found stopping distance was not great - they have not tested the LTX M/S2 (no name tire)

Bridgestone 1ST 155 feet to stop Michelin 6TH at 168.

They said
  • What We'd Improve: A bit more traction never goes amiss

Overall Michelin came in 3RD behind the Continental 1ST and Bridgestone 2ND

I have just observed many tires getting a bump in load index - with many 114 now becoming 116. They also are starting to put EV approved on the features. Could just be marketing.
 
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These Premier LTX are the worse set of Michelin tires I have ever had - they should be ashamed to have their name on them.
I put the Michelin Defender T+H - 195/60R15 88H Tire on my son's Nissan Sentra. Took out the vibrations of the terrible tires that were on before, but the ride got ridiculously hard. Feel every bump and every impact now. I almost regret this choice for that car, but at least I feel like I can trust the tire. This was why I was concerned about switching over to the MS/2's on the Armada. Just didn't want to get that hard ride...but different tires, different vehicle. Feedback here has put my mind to ease on this factor.
 
I put the Michelin Defender T+H - 195/60R15 88H Tire on my son's Nissan Sentra. Took out the vibrations of the terrible tires that were on before, but the ride got ridiculously hard. Feel every bump and every impact now. I almost regret this choice for that car, but at least I feel like I can trust the tire. This was why I was concerned about switching over to the MS/2's on the Armada. Just didn't want to get that hard ride...but different tires, different vehicle. Feedback here has put my mind to ease on this factor.

Back in 1999 I wanted larger tires for my Silverado Z71 pick up - so I put on some 285 75 16 LT tires

I didn't mind the ride but my wife hated it.

At 67 (today is my B-day) I am more about a nice ride.
 
@z71bill - I am very similar in what I’d like from my tires these days. Michelin LTX M/S is a gold standard, but to me in some ways a rather boring tire. The ride is a little soft, it’s near useless in the mud. It’s pretty good in the snow. The ones I’ve had have all gotten loud later in life.

The continental AT has been great for me, and it also looks decent. It’s 90% or more of what the Michelin does in snow.

Have you looked at the new Bridgestone, the one replacing the revo3? I think it’s called the AT Ascent. It has a traditional AT knob design but the spacing is more aggressive. This could be a very interesting offering, as the reviews so far are quite good. Bridgestone makes a good tire if you stay out of their entry level offerings.

Per tirerack, there’s a cooper all terrain that is also getting high marks. I’m seeing them on a lot of half tons here, so they may be earning a good reputation. It’s a good looking tire for certain.

I’ve got oem Michelin primacy LTX on my Tacoma in the same size right now - 265/65r18. They ride soft and I don’t particularly care for them on a truck, but I just can’t justify changing them out yet. But I’ve certainly thought enough and read enough about it to narrow what I would do down to those three. My other thoughts on them:

Bridgestone. Will likely wear like iron. Though they are 3PMSF rated, snow traction in real life is probably mediocre. I would expect them to have minimal wear issues, and youll probably lose rain traction before they are out of tread.

Continental - likely the best wet traction of the bunch - there is some kind of magic in continental rubber that has been consistently excellent in the rain. Downside - both sets of continental ATs I’ve had developed a slight, or very slight, steering pull as they aged. I don’t entirely trust their manufacturing precision.

Cooper - I really liked the cooper RTX, which is 98% similar to the new one. It felt like a soft rubber utility vehicle tire. The first 30k were quiet and grippy and that soft rubber was a good safe bet on wet streets. Wet traction started to fade at 30k and despite regular rotations, all of them were cupping. Seemed like older tech. Also, cooper seems to have a ton of tire recalls.

Honorable mention. Yokohama G015. The unmentioned gem in the bunch. I wouldn’t suggest them for an open bed pickup because they need some weight over them to grip, but they are well made, balance out very well, silent, and drive like glass on an open interstate, the smoothest highway going “AT” I’ve known. They fall behind the Michelin and continental in wet grip, but in my mind ace the quality markers for a well-made tire.
 
The test Tire Rack did on the Defender LTX M/S2 found stopping distance was not great - they have not tested the LTX M/S2 (no name tire)

Bridgestone 1ST 155 feet to stop Michelin 6TH at 168.


They said
  • What We'd Improve: A bit more traction never goes amiss

Overall Michelin came in 3RD behind the Continental 1ST and Bridgestone 2ND

I have just observed many tires getting a bump in load index - with many 114 now becoming 116. They also are starting to put EV approved on the features. Could just be marketing.
Test of new tires is always a good gauge, but the real question is, where is that performance at 20k or 30k? Undisputed king of performance retention is Michelin, especially Pilot series, X-Ice series and Defender LTX series.
 
@z71bill - I am very similar in what I’d like from my tires these days. Michelin LTX M/S is a gold standard, but to me in some ways a rather boring tire. The ride is a little soft, it’s near useless in the mud. It’s pretty good in the snow. The ones I’ve had have all gotten loud later in life.

The continental AT has been great for me, and it also looks decent. It’s 90% or more of what the Michelin does in snow.

Have you looked at the new Bridgestone, the one replacing the revo3? I think it’s called the AT Ascent. It has a traditional AT knob design but the spacing is more aggressive. This could be a very interesting offering, as the reviews so far are quite good. Bridgestone makes a good tire if you stay out of their entry level offerings.

Per tirerack, there’s a cooper all terrain that is also getting high marks. I’m seeing them on a lot of half tons here, so they may be earning a good reputation. It’s a good looking tire for certain.

I’ve got oem Michelin primacy LTX on my Tacoma in the same size right now - 265/65r18. They ride soft and I don’t particularly care for them on a truck, but I just can’t justify changing them out yet. But I’ve certainly thought enough and read enough about it to narrow what I would do down to those three. My other thoughts on them:

Bridgestone. Will likely wear like iron. Though they are 3PMSF rated, snow traction in real life is probably mediocre. I would expect them to have minimal wear issues, and youll probably lose rain traction before they are out of tread.

Continental - likely the best wet traction of the bunch - there is some kind of magic in continental rubber that has been consistently excellent in the rain. Downside - both sets of continental ATs I’ve had developed a slight, or very slight, steering pull as they aged. I don’t entirely trust their manufacturing precision.

Cooper - I really liked the cooper RTX, which is 98% similar to the new one. It felt like a soft rubber utility vehicle tire. The first 30k were quiet and grippy and that soft rubber was a good safe bet on wet streets. Wet traction started to fade at 30k and despite regular rotations, all of them were cupping. Seemed like older tech. Also, cooper seems to have a ton of tire recalls.

Honorable mention. Yokohama G015. The unmentioned gem in the bunch. I wouldn’t suggest them for an open bed pickup because they need some weight over them to grip, but they are well made, balance out very well, silent, and drive like glass on an open interstate, the smoothest highway going “AT” I’ve known. They fall behind the Michelin and continental in wet grip, but in my mind ace the quality markers for a well-made tire.
Which does the job exceptionally well:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/so...fect-all-terrain-tire-for-most-of-us.1319040/
 
@z71bill - I am very similar in what I’d like from my tires these days. Michelin LTX M/S is a gold standard, but to me in some ways a rather boring tire. The ride is a little soft, it’s near useless in the mud. It’s pretty good in the snow. The ones I’ve had have all gotten loud later in life.

The continental AT has been great for me, and it also looks decent. It’s 90% or more of what the Michelin does in snow.

Have you looked at the new Bridgestone, the one replacing the revo3? I think it’s called the AT Ascent. It has a traditional AT knob design but the spacing is more aggressive. This could be a very interesting offering, as the reviews so far are quite good. Bridgestone makes a good tire if you stay out of their entry level offerings.

Per tirerack, there’s a cooper all terrain that is also getting high marks. I’m seeing them on a lot of half tons here, so they may be earning a good reputation. It’s a good looking tire for certain.

I’ve got oem Michelin primacy LTX on my Tacoma in the same size right now - 265/65r18. They ride soft and I don’t particularly care for them on a truck, but I just can’t justify changing them out yet. But I’ve certainly thought enough and read enough about it to narrow what I would do down to those three. My other thoughts on them:

Bridgestone. Will likely wear like iron. Though they are 3PMSF rated, snow traction in real life is probably mediocre. I would expect them to have minimal wear issues, and youll probably lose rain traction before they are out of tread.

Continental - likely the best wet traction of the bunch - there is some kind of magic in continental rubber that has been consistently excellent in the rain. Downside - both sets of continental ATs I’ve had developed a slight, or very slight, steering pull as they aged. I don’t entirely trust their manufacturing precision.

Cooper - I really liked the cooper RTX, which is 98% similar to the new one. It felt like a soft rubber utility vehicle tire. The first 30k were quiet and grippy and that soft rubber was a good safe bet on wet streets. Wet traction started to fade at 30k and despite regular rotations, all of them were cupping. Seemed like older tech. Also, cooper seems to have a ton of tire recalls.

Honorable mention. Yokohama G015. The unmentioned gem in the bunch. I wouldn’t suggest them for an open bed pickup because they need some weight over them to grip, but they are well made, balance out very well, silent, and drive like glass on an open interstate, the smoothest highway going “AT” I’ve known. They fall behind the Michelin and continental in wet grip, but in my mind ace the quality markers for a well-made tire.
I have the AT Ascent in my shopping cart at Sam's Club. :cool:

$273 each with $80 off if you buy 4. Sam's installs all 4 for $40 (half price) so drive out with tax is $1,135.45.

Pirelli Scorpion AS Plus 3 $100 off if I buy 4 same install deal - drive out $874.14 Would be a better match with where I drive.

My Tahoe had EOM Bridgestone Dueler A/T RH-S on it when new. After IIRC about 25K they still looked new - tread barely worn. But after almost spinning around on wet roads a couple times / even though I was going slow - I got Michelin Defender LTX. Discount Tire gave me some $$ trade in - I think it was $50 a Tire but still better than nothing. That was my last Bridgestone tire.

I have looked hard at Cooper - most are load index 116 which I don't really need or want.

My problem deciding is complicated by the fact my current tires, Defender LTX M/S still have some tread left, they hit 7 years since install in November 2018. I bought them on Black Friday sale - so DT starts early!

I also need TPMS - my current ones are 9 years old. Still work but are past due for failure.

DT has them $62 each installed. I can buy the exact same senor on Amazon for $17 and Sam's will install them no extra charge.

I am hoping to get DT to price match Sam's. I know they do on tires but not sure how the handle TPMS.

The last time I had TPMS replaced they did all 4 but not with new tires and DT only charged me for 3.

I also need a spare 265 70 17 not same size as my other tires - since mine is 18 years old and should have been replaced 7 years ago when I got new tires.

5 tires, 4 TPMS + install could get expensive - I hope I can get DT to price match Sam's or Walmart - I would rather get them at DT.


My wife notices the tires making some extra noise - she ask if I could hear "that" noise. My hearing is not great. I said yes - she ask if it was my transmission going out, AC compressor or a wheel bearing. :ROFLMAO: I said - nope tires are getting louder as the age. Some roads are way worse than others. One patch of a concrete street is the worst, it is old and has some grooves in it.
 
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I have the AT Ascent in my shopping cart at Sam's Club. :cool:

$273 each with $80 off if you buy 4. Sam's installs all 4 for $40 (half price) so drive out with tax is $1,135.45.

Pirelli Scorpion AS Plus 3 $100 off if I buy 4 same install deal - drive out $874.14 Would be a better match with where I drive.

My Tahoe had EOM Bridgestone Dueler A/T RH-S on it when new. After IIRC about 25K they still looked new - tread barely worn. But after almost spinning around on wet roads a couple times / even though I was going slow - I got Michelin Defender LTX. Discount Tire gave me some $$ trade in - I think it was $50 a Tire but still better than nothing. That was my last Bridgestone tire.

I have looked hard at Cooper - most are load index 116 which I don't really need or want.

My problem deciding is complicated by the fact my current tires, Defender LTX M/S still have some tread left, they hit 7 years since install in November 2018. I bought them on Black Friday sale - so DT starts early!

I also need TPMS - my current ones are 9 years old. Still work but are past due for failure.

DT has them $62 each installed. I can buy the exact same senor on Amazon for $17 and Sam's will install them no extra charge.

I am hoping to get DT to price match Sam's. I know they do on tires but not sure how the handle TPMS.

The last time I had TPMS replaced they did all 4 but not with new tires and DT only charged me for 3.

I also need a spare 265 70 17 not same size as my other tires - since mine is 18 years old and should have been replaced 7 years ago when I got new tires.

5 tires, 4 TPMS + install could get expensive - I hope I can get DT to price match Sam's or Walmart - I would rather get them at DT.


My wife notices the tires making some extra noise - she ask if I could hear "that" noise. My hearing is not great. I said yes - she ask if it was my transmission going out, AC compressor or a wheel bearing. :ROFLMAO: I said - nope tires are getting louder as the age. Some roads are way worse than others. One patch of a concrete street is the worst, it is old and has some grooves in it.
Do you need AT tire?
On pavement Defender or Continental HT will perform much better.
 
I have the AT Ascent in my shopping cart at Sam's Club. :cool:

$273 each with $80 off if you buy 4. Sam's installs all 4 for $40 (half price) so drive out with tax is $1,135.45.

Pirelli Scorpion AS Plus 3 $100 off if I buy 4 same install deal - drive out $874.14 Would be a better match with where I drive.

My Tahoe had EOM Bridgestone Dueler A/T RH-S on it when new. After IIRC about 25K they still looked new - tread barely worn. But after almost spinning around on wet roads a couple times / even though I was going slow - I got Michelin Defender LTX. Discount Tire gave me some $$ trade in - I think it was $50 a Tire but still better than nothing. That was my last Bridgestone tire.

I have looked hard at Cooper - most are load index 116 which I don't really need or want.

My problem deciding is complicated by the fact my current tires, Defender LTX M/S still have some tread left, they hit 7 years since install in November 2018. I bought them on Black Friday sale - so DT starts early!

I also need TPMS - my current ones are 9 years old. Still work but are past due for failure.

DT has them $62 each installed. I can buy the exact same senor on Amazon for $17 and Sam's will install them no extra charge.

I am hoping to get DT to price match Sam's. I know they do on tires but not sure how the handle TPMS.

The last time I had TPMS replaced they did all 4 but not with new tires and DT only charged me for 3.

I also need a spare 265 70 17 not same size as my other tires - since mine is 18 years old and should have been replaced 7 years ago when I got new tires.

5 tires, 4 TPMS + install could get expensive - I hope I can get DT to price match Sam's or Walmart - I would rather get them at DT.


My wife notices the tires making some extra noise - she ask if I could hear "that" noise. My hearing is not great. I said yes - she ask if it was my transmission going out, AC compressor or a wheel bearing. :ROFLMAO: I said - nope tires are getting louder as the age. Some roads are way worse than others. One patch of a concrete street is the worst, it is old and has some grooves in it.
😯 That's a ton of money for tires.
I will soon be needing tires for my F-150.
I can't fork over that kind of money for LTX M/S 2. That's what is on there now. They are the OE tires. I will be looking at Cooper Endeavor Plus or Cooper Pro Control. Plus, Cooper is an American company and the tires are made here.
 
I don't see how the ride quality would not be impacted going from 112 to 116 so while still considering the Michelin it may get knocked out because of the load rating.
Its not that big a deal. going to another brand's 112 might ride considerably worse.
I am much happier with the overall ride of my conti dws06+ vs my previous tire
and they are W rated vs H as well as a higher load rating
including better ride over bumps and expansion joints.
 
😯 That's a ton of money for tires.
I will soon be needing tires for my F-150.
I can't fork over that kind of money for LTX M/S 2. That's what is on there now. They are the OE tires. I will be looking at Cooper Endeavor Plus or Cooper Pro Control. Plus, Cooper is an American company and the tires are made here.
I have looked at the Cooper tires several times.

Last time I had a flat repair as I was waiting a truck pulled out with new tires and I though those look nice- they were Cooper.
 
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