Petro Canada Oils

[sisco]

First time poster, but long time reader.

After sifting through a whole slew of used oil analysis, I'm curious to hear everyone's opinions of Petro Canada oil. I have seen many posters here speak highly of P.C. oil, but when I look at the used oil analysis posted to this forum, it doesn't seem to live up to the "hype".

I'm having a bit of an internal dilemma about this whole thing (as only a BITOG reader would) since I am Canadian and would love to support a Canadian producer. Also, I drive a 2003 Civic, and Honda OEM oils in Canada are made by P.C.; I can't help but think that the powers that be at Honda know what they're doing. That said, I just can't seem to convince myself (using used oil analysis from this site) that P.C. oils are a top contender for my dollar. The few VOAs I've seen seem to indicate a very robust oil, but nearly all of the used oil analysis show the TBN spent at relatively low mileage, and in come cases, elevated wear metals. I'm not saying they are terrible, but it seems that Pennzoil/Castrol/Mobil offer a better product at around the same price when on sale...and sales on one or the other aren't hard to find.

I'd love to hear some additional opinions on this one. Perhaps folks out there know something I don't!

Cheers!

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: sisco
I have seen many posters here speak highly of P.C. oil, but when I look at the used oil analysis posted to this forum, it doesn't seem to live up to the "hype".

The problem is that used oil analysis are simply a snapshot, and there are very few PC used oil analysis. If we had people doing some trended used oil analysis, we'd have some better information. Heck, we see more Red Line used oil analysis than PC ones. used oil analysis are limited tools in comparing oils.

You can take any oil, no matter how good its UOA reputation, and put it in an application or usage pattern that will make for a "bad" UOA. We've seen "bad" ones from every oil we can think of.

PC is a reasonably large player, but I suspect the bulk of their motor oil sales are to dealerships and fleets. We do not see a lot of used oil analysis from Canada to begin with, and the former will not produce a lot of used oil analysis, and we won't see a lot from the latter group here.

It would be nice if we had a tool that would unequivocally show which brand oil is best for which application. We don't, and used oil analysis certainly aren't that tool.

As for the cost issue, that depends. Not every Canadian is near a Walmart. Someone in a small town might have a better shot at getting something from Imperial Oil or PC. Petro-Canada's gas station price on oil is no worse than Walmart's or CT's regular price on oil, either.

Just get a bajillion Petro-Points like I have. I'm considering switching to their oil for that reason alone. $10.88 Pennzoil Conventional is an attractive price, but so is Petro-Canada oil for the points I've already accumulated.

 

[sisco]

Thanks for the reply Garak.

For what it's worth, I was thinking (hoping) the same thing. I don't think P.C. oils are champs of the extended drain interval, but I don't think they're necessarily designed for that either.

I can actually buy the full line of P.C. oils locally at Superline Fuels for a pretty reasonable price - 3.08/l for conventional and 7.59/l for synthetic. Close to what the other major brands sell for when on sale.

 

[Garak]

I would agree. I don't think they're the extended drain type like Mobil 1 (let alone Mobil 1 Extended Performance) or Amsoil. The PCSS doesn't even claim the ACEA specifications that regular Mobil 1 5w30 does. But, it's not $10 a litre, either. It is dexos1 certified and PC has some pretty fine base stocks. I know their conventional looked reasonable in the PQIA tests, and all their oils have some decent cold weather specifications.

I already have enough Petro-Points for 24 litres of synthetic, and they're amassing at an alarming rate. Using the points towards fuel is a losing proposition, if you ask me. At least if one is using Petro-Points, the gas stations here actually stock enough of the stuff. Trying to buy an Esso or Mobil product at an Esso gas station is a losing proposition. They don't even stock enough Mobil Super 1000 here for a single OCI. They have a couple litres of that, and a couple of Pennzoil conventional, and a couple QS. What a mess.

Considering that the Mobil conventional stuff is a little harder to get here at retail (at least compared to SOPUS and Castrol), you'd think they'd push it at the gas stations. After all, PC is hard to find at retail; they just ensure it's readily available at the stations without charging astronomical amounts for it.

 

[cp3]

Can't argue with anything Garak has said, I don't feel they are are a long drain oil either and they are not marketed as such. The SS line hasn't shown great performance in regards to shear resistance but this rarely seems to present an issue and it is definitely not alone in this issue.

I also agree with your desire to support a Canadian company, this was probably the biggest reason I started using PC products. I do feel that they make decent stuff and will continue to use them. I think their base oils are good but they do not use a leading edge ad pack.

I do wish it was a little easier to come by locally. The distributor pricing is quite better here than the station pricing. If you're happy with the pricing go for it, you're engine should live a long happy life on their products.

 

[Solarent]

PetroCanada is definitely a bigger player in the industrial market and as was already mentioned bulk oil and fleet use. They just don't put a big emphasis on the passenger car market, which means you don't have the advertising or the long list of specification approvals either.

My feelings pretty much match what has been said above, although I have more confidence in the synthetic oils ability to do the extended mileage (maybe not 25 000 kms, but I've seen at least 15000 km without any issues). Like Garak said, there are so few petrocanada used oil analysis shared, it's hard to get a feel for how good this oil really is.

When it comes to base oils though, I know companies that use them and they are far superior in the Group II than most, and like I mentioned elsewhere one of 2 Group III plants in North America.

PS Welcome to the group, it's good to see more and more canadians getting involved - people who understand that oil isn't cheap up here, gas isn't either, and PU is a mythical unicorn.

 

[sisco]

Thanks for the additional replies all.

My current thinking is along the lines of Garak and cp3. I think Petro Canada makes "good" oil, and is in all likelihood more than adequate for regular OCIs.

That said, I think some of the other major brands offer a better ad pack - the question is whether or not it's worth paying the premium (however little it may be, in the grand scheme of things) for those other brands, and/or whether my patriotism will compel me to buy Canadian regardless of the relatively small, and likely irrelevant, differences between P.C. oil and other major brands...only time will tell, I guess!

For now, I've picked up another couple of 5L jugs of Castrol GTX from Part Source for ~19 each after tax...roughly equivalent to what Petro Canada Supreme would have cost me. Hard to pass up a good sale...

 

[Smokescreen]

Uhh have you been to Wal-mart these past 2 weeks?

They have 5L jugs of Pennzoil conventional for $10.88...better oil for better price.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: sisco
I think Petro Canada makes "good" oil, and is in all likelihood more than adequate for regular OCIs.

There always are plenty of sales out there on the non-PC stuff, of course. Others here have bought from distributors and found some pretty decent pricing, though certainly not quite on par with a Walmart rollback, but way better than a WM regular price. Dealing with a distributor is kind of hit and miss, though, usually for geographic reasons. The Imperial Oil distributor is virtually walking distance from one of my businesses. The PC distributor - not so much.

I'm not even sure that other companies offer much better of an additive package. With respect to the PC conventional, the PQIA report showed a relatively robust additive package, for what such a VOA is worth, at least. I would suspect that the synthetic line is reasonably formidable, too.

Like I said, the lack of ACEA specifications is a bit telling. It's not a bad thing, but it tells you a bit about their target market. M1 and several other synthetics have even some basic ACEA specifications, which involve a minimum TBN for some extended drain capability. Petro-Canada's target market doesn't really call for getting any ACEA certifications, at least in the normal 0w-20, 5w-20, 0w-30, and 5w30 grades.

If you look at their 5w30, it's SN/GF-5 and dexos1 licensed (and the superseded GM specs), along with carrying the specifications for Ford, Chrysler, and Honda HTO-06. The other grades carry all the relevant North American specifications. So, assuming you're not driving a GT-R or something from the SRT or SVT lines, about every North American and Japanese vehicle can be serviced with their motor oils. Petro-Canada has the usual lubrication warranty, too (not mileage limited), assuming one uses the lube with the correct viscosity and specifications and an appropriate filter and over proper intervals. If you ask me, if the oil doesn't have any ACEA specifications, the dexos1 license, the old GM synthetic spec (4718M), and the HTO-06 are probably the most robust ones, and it has them all.

When it comes to service fills, I think we'd be all shocked if we actually went and found out how many dealerships and OEMs in Canada use PC products. I'm pretty sure Motorcraft up here is Petro-Canada stuff, and some of the Japanese dealers use it, too.

Following a proper maintenance schedule with approved fluids is the key. Worrying about whether Pennzoil Conventional is better than GTX or if M1 is better than Synpower in a typical SN/GF-5 application is simply worrying over nothing.

And yes, I worry about nothing.

 

[sisco]

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
Uhh have you been to Wal-mart these past 2 weeks?

They have 5L jugs of Pennzoil Conventional for $10.88...better oil for better price.


Uhh, yes I have...? The unfortunate truth is that only 1 of the 3 Wal-marts in Halifax actually have any of the sale-sized Pennzoil Conventional bottles in stock, and that one only had 10w30, which isn't what I want.

To continue, I'm not so sure that you or anyone else can conclusively state that Pennzoil Conventional is better than Castrol GTX. They are both top quality oils...potentially two of the best, but saying one is better than the other is a stretch. You (or someone else) may like the look of the VOA of Pennzoil Conventional better than that of GTX, but that doesn't make it "better" by a long shot. Pennzoil Conventional VOAs look very strong since it has lots of what we're looking for, but the sodium in GTX makes me think there is some next-gen oil chem. going on since many of the "new" additives contain sodium...but who knows? That's my point. They are both exceptional oils, and we should leave it at that.

 

[sisco]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Others here have bought from distributors and found some pretty decent pricing, though certainly not quite on par with a Walmart rollback, but way better than a WM regular price.


Yeah, I'm lucky enough to have a distributor here in Halifax (Superline Fuels isn't actually a gas station), but the pricing they gave me is what was posted earlier in the thread. Good pricing, but some of the rollbacks and sales around town can meet or beat the distributor pricing for Petro Can oils.

I like synthetic oils, but I'm not into extended OCIs, so I tend to stick to conventional oils. Honda 4-cylinder engines are so easy on oil that I probably don't need to worry about these things nearly as much as I do, but I guess that leaves me in good company here at BITOG...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: sisco
They are both exceptional oils, and we should leave it at that.


I don't think I'd call a few conventional oils that have your regular plain-Jane certs/approvals "exceptional". Perhaps "very good" would be more appropriate.

I'd reserve terms like "exceptional" for oils like Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40 and Mobil 1 0w-40, oils with arm-long lists of certs/approvals.

 

[sisco]

To each their own...perhaps I should have qualified that statement? Castrol GTX and Pennzoil Conventional are both exceptional conventional oils.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: sisco
To each their own...perhaps I should have qualified that statement? Castrol GTX and Pennzoil Conventional are both exceptional conventional oils.


And that's where we are going to have fun

(I apologize in advance for this.... it is all in good humour)

How do we qualify that Castrol GTX and Pennzoil Conventional are exceptional? When compared to their peers, what makes them stand above Valvoline Conventional, Mobil Super 5000 10w30....etc?

When we speak of the two oils I mentioned, that distinction is easy: They are two two most heavily certified oils on the planet. We KNOW they are exceptional, because they have to be in order to satisfy the requirements of the manufacturer approvals that they carry.

So when speaking of a conventional oil, one that doesn't stand apart from its peers by carrying some hard to obtain approval from a manufacturer, how do we qualify that this product is indeed exceptional?

 

[sisco]

We can argue all day about semantics and what the word "exceptional" actually means with regard to motor oils, but frankly, I've got better things to do with my time. By your standard, no oil can be "exceptional" unless it's synthetic? You are entitled to your opinion, but I beg to differ.

Pennzoil Conventional and Castrol GTX are both mass-marketed and widely used oils with very good track records. Take a gander at the "top three conventional oils" thread. Pennzoil conventional, Castrol GTX, and a few others show up in many user's lists - call it what you want, but pragmatically speaking, I would consider any of those to be "exceptional" oils.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: sisco
We can argue all day about semantics and what the word "exceptional" actually means with regard to motor oils,


Not really, the word exceptional has a pretty well understood meaning

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but frankly, I've got better things to do with my time.


Don't we all

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By your standard, no oil can be "exceptional" unless it's synthetic? You are entitled to your opinion, but I beg to differ.


Not quite. An oil has to fit the definition of exceptional to be called such. The two oils I listed are indeed synthetic, but I didn't state that it was a requirement. The requirement is staying true to the definition of the word. If an oil can meet a plethora of demanding specs and obtain those high fruit certifications, it is exceptional, regardless of its base stocks. It needs something to make it stand above its peers. Saying something is exceptional doesn't make it so. Neither does mere popularity. There must be a trait/characteristic that sets it apart.

Quote:
Pennzoil Conventional and Castrol GTX are both mass-marketed and widely used oils with very good track records. Take a gander at the "top three conventional oils" thread. Pennzoil conventional, Castrol GTX, and a few others show up in many user's lists - call it what you want, but pragmatically speaking, I would consider any of those to be "exceptional" oils.


I would consider them popular

 

[sisco]

Ok, at this point you're just trolling me.

I know very well what the definition of exceptional is. For the record, Merriam-Webster gives a few definitions, but my usage of the word would fall under definition 2 "better than average".

That said, and the point I was trying to make in my previous reply, the criteria you or I, or anyone else use to determine what is and isn't exceptional could differ. Do certifications weigh most heavily? How about time tested reliability in service? Cleaning performance? etc.

Castrol's website states that Castrol GTX provides "superior sludge protection, 57% better than the leading 5w30. Tests prove it."

Penzoil's website states that;

"No leading conventional oil helps keep engines cleaner 1
No leading conventional oil provides better wear protection 2

1 Based on Sequence VG sludge test using SAE 5w30.

2 Based on Sequence IVA wear test using SAE 5w30."

In my opinion, both of these oils (and probably a few others) deliver exceptional (above average) performance among conventional oils. You can disagree with me, and that's fine, but this conversation has deviated enough from the original topic that this will be my last reply to you on this point.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: sisco
Ok, at this point you're just trolling me.


I thought you'd figured that out from my first reply to you where I indicated this was all in good humour....

Quote:
I know very well what the definition of exceptional is. For the record, Merriam-Webster gives a few definitions, but my usage of the word would fall under definition 2 "better than average".


But what constitutes average here? The average of all the brand-name oils? The average of all API SN or SM rated 5w30's or 10w30's? Being slightly better than average in that context in my mind wouldn't make a product exceptional

Quote:
That said, and the point I was trying to make in my previous reply, the criteria you or I, or anyone else use to determine what is and isn't exceptional could differ. Do certifications weigh most heavily? How about time tested reliability in service? Cleaning performance? etc.


Normally all of those things (and more) are accounted for within the manufacturer's testing. Check out the Porsche oil test on Youtube for an example of how demanding some of these testing protocols are. Ultimately, anything that goes markedly above and beyond the testing of the API and ACEA is going to guarantee some level of exceptional (by definition) performance. You can look at the Lubrizol tool and see the requirements for some of the Euro certs (MB ones for example, and the VW ones) for some examples of this.

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Castrol's website states that Castrol GTX provides "superior sludge protection, 57% better than the leading 5w30. Tests prove it."


Marketing fluff. What is the "leading" 5w30? I thought it was Pennzoil conventional?

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Penzoil's website states that;

"No leading conventional oil helps keep engines cleaner 1
No leading conventional oil provides better wear protection 2

1 Based on Sequence VG sludge test using SAE 5w30.

2 Based on Sequence IVA wear test using SAE 5w30."


But how can the oil that cannot be matched in keeping an engine clean, be 57% worse at protecting against sludge?

Marketing is fun. I'll take manufacturer testing, which is unbiased, over these types of claims. In fact, for guaranteed levels of performance, that's the entire reason manufacturer certs/approvals exist

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In my opinion, both of these oils (and probably a few others) deliver exceptional (above average) performance among conventional oils.


A kid can get above average grades in school, but that doesn't make him or her truly exceptional now does it? There are all kinds of kids that get above average grades out there. The exceptional ones are those that blow you away. That make a teacher take a step back. I think our qualification of what constitutes exceptional in this case is the dividing line here (I know I know, you'll take definition B for 300, Alex). I think of exceptional performance as something that puts somebody or something well above its peers in terms of performance. You are content with lumping in the straight B's student with Stephen Hawking. That's why our viewpoints don't align.

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You can disagree with me, and that's fine, but this conversation has deviated enough from the original topic that this will be my last reply to you on this point.


But we've had so much fun!!

Come on, I've actually used the PC oils, was buying them by the case for quite some time. Particularly the Duron-E and their 0w30 synthetic. That's on-topic right?

If you are at all familiar with my posting history on this board, you'd know that this is a typical discussion with me. I'm not trying to be rude, it is all in good fun. This is, after all, a discussion forum, and are we not having a discussion?

And OT, but where abouts down east are you from? I lived in New Brunswick from 1994 to 2001.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: sisco
To continue, I'm not so sure that you or anyone else can conclusively state that Pennzoil Conventional is better than Castrol GTX.

You're right. There's nothing wrong with GTX, and watch for a special on it at Walmart this week. They just brought a few pallets onto the floor tonight. I think it was around $13.88 or $14.88, not great, but not bad either.

Originally Posted By: sisco
I like synthetic oils, but I'm not into extended OCIs, so I tend to stick to conventional oils.

You could try their conventional, then. You should be able to gather up enough Petro-Points to get it relatively cheap or even "free."

Overkill is bringing up a good point, though, with respect to the use of the term exceptional. I'd like to think Pennzoil Conventional is exceptional, but that doesn't make it so. I'm sure Pennzoil would like me to think it's exceptional, too. And you can have an "exceptional" motor oil that can be conventional, too. Take a look at some of the ACEA E sequences.

 

[cp3]

Well, I just got the call that my case of Duron 0w30 is in!

Didn't catch the pricing the first time I read through this, $3.08/L is very good pricing and considering it's not a roll-back or sale it's even better. Was much closer to regular prices here at $4.55 or so IIRC. Would definitely be high on my list if I was running conventional. Probably at the top at your price.