Wow, can't say I ever thought that would happen!
https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/pe...-ev-charging-fee-increase-across-the-country/
https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/pe...-ev-charging-fee-increase-across-the-country/
Petro Canada increasing EV charging fees?!
- Thread starter Oillover
- Start date
I don't own an EV, but as an outsider looking in, $30 for an hour doesn't seem unreasonable, considering energy cost, infrastructure cost, and maintenance costs. Even something as simple as keeping snow cleared from the parking area is an expense that needs to be covered.
If there is enough profit to be made, competitors join the scene.
If there is enough profit to be made, competitors join the scene.
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Well I don't know about you but $30 worth of fuel will get me several hours down the road.
I wonder how far the $30 of charging would get one, compared to $30 of gasoline.
Assuming fuel averages close to $2/litre in Canada, $30 would buy 15 litres. At 7.5 l/100 km (just to make the math easy), the $30 of gasoline would be good for 200 km of range.
How much range would an hour's charging yield in a comparable vehicle?
So what? Tesla superchargers give you 200 miles of range in 15 mins. I doubt these Petro-Canada units are that far off. So let's say 30 mins max.Wow, can't say I ever thought that would happen!
https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/pe...-ev-charging-fee-increase-across-the-country/
Tesla states their superchargers give owners 200 miles of range in 15 min charging. I doubt these Petro-Canada units are that far off.
In another thread, the OP purchased a new Camry Hybrid base model (that's the one with the best MPG) and is seeing over 50MPG and considering how far $30 can get you about 300 miles in Canada.
Just thinking about Petro Canada's chargers, they claim 350KW is available at "most locations". However, reading the users comments, it seems charge rates can be quite slow for some. How many 350KW chargers do they have per location?
The upcoming pickup trucks with 200KWh battery packs are said to be able to accept 350KW charge rates and can get 100 miles of city range (about 60 miles highway) in 10 minutes.
The issue as I see it, is that many times, the charge rate is much lower than the specifications would suggest. Especially if all chargers are occupied.
Just thinking about Petro Canada's chargers, they claim 350KW is available at "most locations". However, reading the users comments, it seems charge rates can be quite slow for some. How many 350KW chargers do they have per location?
The upcoming pickup trucks with 200KWh battery packs are said to be able to accept 350KW charge rates and can get 100 miles of city range (about 60 miles highway) in 10 minutes.
The issue as I see it, is that many times, the charge rate is much lower than the specifications would suggest. Especially if all chargers are occupied.
Per PetroCan's new rate of $0.50/minute, 15 minutes of charging would cost $7.50, and, assuming Tesla-like results, provide 200 miles (320 km) of range.
$7.50 would buy just under 4 l of gasoline, providing about 50 km of range.
Or to calculate it another way, 320 km of range would take about 25 l of gasoline, at a cost of about $50.
All figures are approximate, done in my head, so there's a lot of rounding, but they're not far off.
In any case, even at PetroCan's higher rate of $0.50/minute, it looks like charging an electric car will be < 1/6 the cost of fueling a reasonably efficient gasoline car.
I don't have an electric vehicle, and am not arguing for or against. I realize the savings in fuel are somewhat offset by the higher capital cost of an EV. I don't know what the tipping point will be.
Not sure what difference it makes at this point, when one is paying $15,000 & more for an electric vehicle vs gasoline I wouldnt think you should be worrying at the price of fuel.
BTW - I too dont care if EV or Gas .. I just think the cost of fuel shouldn't be an issue for those with the means of buying 50k to 100k EVs. At this point in time, these are auto enthusiasts, electronics enthusiasts and performance enthusiasts. If you looking for cost savings a hybrid or gas vehicle is more practical.
One thing for sure, the EV market is in the honeymoon phase with all the taxpayer subsidies, electric rates being held back ect
BTW - I too dont care if EV or Gas .. I just think the cost of fuel shouldn't be an issue for those with the means of buying 50k to 100k EVs. At this point in time, these are auto enthusiasts, electronics enthusiasts and performance enthusiasts. If you looking for cost savings a hybrid or gas vehicle is more practical.
One thing for sure, the EV market is in the honeymoon phase with all the taxpayer subsidies, electric rates being held back ect
And no road tax....yet.
The 350kw number is a peak, not the sustained charge rate. And even then, you need a vehicle with the 800v architecture to fully support this. The average rate is probably going to be in the 125-200kw range so in the real-world, the 350kw chargers are not significantly faster than the 150kw's.
Plus battery pre-conditioning before DC fast charge sessions is needed in order to maximize speeds.
The miles gained per minute of charging vary dramatically based on the state of charge of the EVs battery.
When the battery is down to say 15%, an EV might charge at a rate of 400 miles of range gained per hour. But when you get to 80% charge the same EV at the same charger might be down to 100 miles gained per hour. (Made up numbers but the concept is correct.)
I know I can't charge my Tesla Model 3 (range 430 km/ 270 miles) on a 250 kW charger to 100% in 15 minutes. Because the rate falls so dramatically, from a 15% charge it might take more like 30 or even 45 minutes.
On the other hand - no-one should be routinely charging to 100% anyway. And when you're on a long trip you only charge to the least amount that will get you to the next charger with however much to spare makes you comfortable. And that's why the reliability of the charging system is so important. To its credit, on our 4,100 km trip we only found one charging station (at an 8 station Tesla Supercharger) out of order. Tesla is open for business.
When the battery is down to say 15%, an EV might charge at a rate of 400 miles of range gained per hour. But when you get to 80% charge the same EV at the same charger might be down to 100 miles gained per hour. (Made up numbers but the concept is correct.)
I know I can't charge my Tesla Model 3 (range 430 km/ 270 miles) on a 250 kW charger to 100% in 15 minutes. Because the rate falls so dramatically, from a 15% charge it might take more like 30 or even 45 minutes.
On the other hand - no-one should be routinely charging to 100% anyway. And when you're on a long trip you only charge to the least amount that will get you to the next charger with however much to spare makes you comfortable. And that's why the reliability of the charging system is so important. To its credit, on our 4,100 km trip we only found one charging station (at an 8 station Tesla Supercharger) out of order. Tesla is open for business.
I think it comes down to total cost of ownership where following play role:
- number of years car lasts before replacement
- car cost
- cost of driving during the the years you own it
- other maintenance and insurance costs
Electric may come out costing more in the end.
Also, I see them charge owners 'car recycling' fees in the future where electric cars may cost much more.
- number of years car lasts before replacement
- car cost
- cost of driving during the the years you own it
- other maintenance and insurance costs
Electric may come out costing more in the end.
Also, I see them charge owners 'car recycling' fees in the future where electric cars may cost much more.
Reading the posts on this thread, it seems that $30 at a PetroCanada charger will get you a few hours down the road as well. But yes, you have to sit at the charger for quite a while compared to gassing up.
I think this is an important consideration to put it in context. Further, I would suspect a lot of users will "cherry pick" their usage of these chargers, in the sense that they will use them only when necessary, and in a way that provides the best KWh/time. It's a different mentality than the use of gas pumps, where unless you're very financially constrained, it only makes sense to fill your tank completely whenever you're at the pump. That means energy cost (to Petro Can) per connected minute will be on the high end as opposed to someone topping off from 80%-100%.
As a probable future user of electric charging infrastructure, I like this rate structure because it will encourage people to get the juice they need to finish their trip, then get out of the way for the next person to connect and do the same. IMO it should be taken a step further so users are hammered with a surcharge for their car being in the way for more than a few minutes after their charge is complete. Couple that with a digital queue during busy times, and we're cooking with gas.
Virginia has increased registration fees for vehicles deemed to be too fuel efficient. I think this even hits vehicles like Honda Civic.
You ain't seen nothing yet!!!!Wow, can't say I ever thought that would happen!
https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/pe...-ev-charging-fee-increase-across-the-country/
Wait till they'll start differential charging fees according to how fast you want to charge it.
Believe me it's coming same as different grades of fuel, originally there was only one.
Once again showing that unless you can charge at home, EV's don't make a ton of sense. If you can, they do, depending on the spread of electricity and fuel prices of course.
I don't know exactly how much that $30 would get you in terms of kwh at one of these chargers, but even plugging a vehicle in at home overnight on a level two system here in Vancouver is only going to cost about $7-8 or so for the same type of distance (say 250 km). I realize it takes a lot longer to charge for the same distance at home but the vehicle is just sitting overnight anyway. In addition you don't have to wait around at a charging station for an hour.
I don't know exactly how much that $30 would get you in terms of kwh at one of these chargers, but even plugging a vehicle in at home overnight on a level two system here in Vancouver is only going to cost about $7-8 or so for the same type of distance (say 250 km). I realize it takes a lot longer to charge for the same distance at home but the vehicle is just sitting overnight anyway. In addition you don't have to wait around at a charging station for an hour.
You have the essence of EV ownership. You do almost all of your charging at home. To maximize the life of your battery you usually only charge to 80%.
You would only charge at a for pay station on a trip and then you make the best use of your time by working in the middle and the bottom of the battery. You have to be a bit organized on a trip. We stayed at hotels with a charger nearby and (while relaxing at the hotel) charged up to 90% for a good start the next day. Your cell phone tells you when it's done so you go and move your car. And Tesla can charge you by the minute (after a short grace period) if you're plugged in but not charging. On our long trip we never had to wait to use a charger.
EVs aren't optimal for long distance traveling but they are acceptable and they're actually better than an ICE for local use or reasonable commutes.
When you have your trip entered into the Navigation system, a Tesla will automatically start preconditioning the battery 5 or so minutes before you get to the next charging station. You're ready to charge on arrival.
If you are planning to have lunch at a charging stop, you would plug your EV in upon arrival and not wait until you've finished lunch. It makes sense to do it that way anyway.