Perplexing Factory Service Information

[clinebarger]

Thought I'd share a weird one...... 2013 Cadillac ATS with a LTG 2.0L Turbo & a 6L45E 6-speed Auto. ATF leak out of the Torque Converter Hub seal, Customer had obviously ran the trans low on fluid a few times & burnt the 4-5-6 Clutch down.....I topped off the fluid & test drove it before condemning the clutch pack. Per the factory service information.......You have to remove the Engine, Transmission, & the K-member to separate the engine from the transmission! While this isn't necessarily ground breaking news as a lot of vehicles require such procedures. BUT.....A RWD car.....Really?? Referencing Alldata Pro, Motor, & Chilton turned up the exact same repair procedures, Called a buddy that still works at Moritz Cadillac....He drops the powertrain like the book instructs. Called another buddy that owns a trans shop, He didn't know what a ATS was.....Thought I was working on a CTS. Told the old [censored] to get his ears checked (I was a little more colorful than that.....Mechanic Banter & all) I even resorted to Google & Youtube ......Nothing. People aren't always forthcoming on what parts they break &/or hack-up! But I couldn't even find a hack video. Decided to just jump-in & try to pull the trans the conventional way & if I lose a couple hours.....So be it! Perks of being the boss. The trans basically falls out! The only hitches was I had to remove the Downpipe/Catalytic Converter assembly which took about 15 minutes. And I broke one of the Harness Clips that slides over the right upper bellhousing bolt stud, Got one of those coming from Cadillac. First pic....The clip I broke Second pic.....Didn't even have to drop the driveshaft. Third pic.....Unit ready to hang. 4th pic.......Pulling the downpipe allowed me access the bellhousing bolts on the left side.

 

[clinebarger]

This may only apply to LTG powered ATS's.....A LFX 3.6L may require pulling the entire powertrain & the reason the service manual is written the way it is? Took about 3 hours to pull the unit, Clean up a little & start draining the torque converter......Making good time on a 14.3 hour job! Customer bought a used trans instead of letting me build this one.

 

[rubberchicken]

Very cool. What sort of warranty does the used trans come with ? MSRP on the new trans does not seem quite as painful as I first imagined.

 

[WhyMe]

how much more would it have been if you rebuilt his tranny?

 

[Spktyr]

Originally Posted by clinebarger

Per the factory service information.......You have to remove the Engine, Transmission, & the K-member to separate the engine from the transmission! While this isn't necessarily ground breaking news as a lot of vehicles require such procedures. BUT.....A RWD car.....Really??

There are a LOT of RWD cars that the factory procedure is to remove the powertrain as a unit then separate the trans from the engine. Mostly they're import vehicles as the classic American barges had ample room to get hands and tools back behind the motor and drop the trans out that way. Not so much on the smaller RWD cars of more recent days. Jaguars, for example, had this requirement on almost all RWD models from at least 68-06. No shortage of Japanese and other Euro marque RWD cars where that's the official procedure too. Can you remove the trans without removing the engine in most of them? Yup, usually - but on my 87 XJ6, I've done it both ways (factory and pulling in situ) and it's actually faster to pull the engine and trans as a unit and separate the trans off. If using hand tools, there's about a two hour delta in that car's case. There's not a lot of clearance, there's a lot of ways to screw up and that's one reason why factories tell you to pull the powertrain as a unit.

 

[Delta]

Originally Posted by clinebarger

The trans basically falls out! The only hitches was I had to remove the Downpipe/Catalytic Converter assembly which took about 15 minutes. And I broke one of the Harness Clips that slides over the right upper bellhousing bolt stud, Got one of those coming from Cadillac.

Definitely ain't doing it that easy where I live. That thing would be so rusted together after 7-8 years. I envy your ability to work on corrosion free vehicles!

 

[Trav]

You know how this goes with as many years in the business as you and I have. I have run into this many times, they want you to pull the drive train on one car to do the cam chain when in reality you loosen the engine mounts, remove the cv shafts and turn the engine a few degrees to the left and bang your in, 2 hrs vs 10. If I look at it and decide this is no big deal the book goes out the window so to speak except for relevant into like marks, tightening sequence and torque settings. Good job on that one Cline, made some hrs.

 

[Donald]

Nothing beats having to pull the cab to work on the Ford PSD.

 

[exranger06]

The factory service info for my Toyota Sienna is nuts. Need to replace the front lower control arms? Step 1: Drop engine/trans/subframe assembly. Uhh, what? Need to drop the transmission pan? Step 1: Drop engine/trans/subframe assembly. Actually, I did drop the trans pan and I had to unbolt the trans mount and jack the trans up a few inches to get access to some of the pan bolts. But there is zero reason to drop the subframe to change the control arms. You don't need to unbolt anything to access them; they're right out in the open!

 

[andyd]

Look at the money the manual people saved. Basically telling you that the first step, is to drop engine/trans. Drop, not pull. It is the reverse of the assembly process I first saw this at a BMW dlr working on 2 yr old car. Left the brakes hanging and unhitched the sub-frame and lowered while the car was raised away from it. It sure would make any work way easier.

 

[Hall]

Originally Posted by clinebarger

Called a buddy that still works at Moritz Cadillac....He drops the powertrain like the book instructs.

He's paid hourly vs flat-rate, huh ? If he is flat-rate, you should tell him it's not necessary and he at least owes you quite a few beers !

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by hallstevenson

Originally Posted by clinebarger

Called a buddy that still works at Moritz Cadillac....He drops the powertrain like the book instructs.

He's paid hourly vs flat-rate, huh ? If he is flat-rate, you should tell him it's not necessary and he at least owes you quite a few beers !

Probably why clinebarger keeps that Coors Light bucket on his workbench for that reason! :p

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted by Spktyr

Originally Posted by clinebarger

Per the factory service information.......You have to remove the Engine, Transmission, & the K-member to separate the engine from the transmission! While this isn't necessarily ground breaking news as a lot of vehicles require such procedures. BUT.....A RWD car.....Really??

There are a LOT of RWD cars that the factory procedure is to remove the powertrain as a unit then separate the trans from the engine. Mostly they're import vehicles as the classic American barges had ample room to get hands and tools back behind the motor and drop the trans out that way. Not so much on the smaller RWD cars of more recent days. Jaguars, for example, had this requirement on almost all RWD models from at least 68-06. No shortage of Japanese and other Euro marque RWD cars where that's the official procedure too. Can you remove the trans without removing the engine in most of them? Yup, usually - but on my 87 XJ6, I've done it both ways (factory and pulling in situ) and it's actually faster to pull the engine and trans as a unit and separate the trans off. If using hand tools, there's about a two hour delta in that car's case. There's not a lot of clearance, there's a lot of ways to screw up and that's one reason why factories tell you to pull the powertrain as a unit.

Interestingly enough......I have plenty of experience on 80's Jaguar XJS's & wouldn't even consider pulling the V12 just to get the TH400 out. But as you point out....The tunnels in those car were very narrow but that's why I have really long 1/2" to 3/8" extensions.

 

[Timmastertech]

That used trans isnt going to work without some extra work. That car is a global A vehicle which means used control modules are a no go. The 6 speed transmissions have the TCM internal to the trans. To make it work, you have a few options. You can try to virginize the tehcm in the replacement trans which may or may not be doable but it going to be done at the EEPROM level, you can swap the tehcm from the original trans to replacement, which may or may not be a good idea since you had a catastrophic fail, or put a new tehcm in the replacement trans and program with SPS. https://gm-techlink.com/?p=11221

 

[Spktyr]

Originally Posted by clinebarger

Interestingly enough......I have plenty of experience on 80's Jaguar XJS's & wouldn't even consider pulling the V12 just to get the TH400 out. But as you point out....The tunnels in those car were very narrow but that's why I have really long 1/2" to 3/8" extensions.

Yeah, the V12 is a different beast than the XK or AJ6/16 engines when it comes to that. It's a *lot* easier to get the powertrain out of the sixes as a whole unit than the V12 cars. It's also a lot easier to work on the sixes in general.

 

[GMBoy]

Working for GM (assembly plant NOT a dealer) and running my own shop, I see all sorts of errors in the Factory Service manuals all the time. They either put too many steps not needed or forget a step or 2 that adds significant time to the job. Looks like you stumbled across the right way to do the job.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted by andyd

Look at the money the manual people saved. Basically telling you that the first step, is to drop engine/trans. Drop, not pull. It is the reverse of the assembly process I first saw this at a BMW dlr working on 2 yr old car. Left the brakes hanging and unhitched the sub-frame and lowered while the car was raised away from it. It sure would make any work way easier.

Just did a G6 like that. Per the service manual, the whole subframe comes down with engine/trans in it. I then pulled the trans, put new in and up everything went...5hrs.

 

[GMBoy]

Moritz is now called Cadillac of Arlington. They suck now. I won't be getting my next Cadillac from them. Moritz was a nice family business who took care of customers and never gave me issues with my GM discounts. The new owners are a big national chain and already lost a few other customers I know as well as business from a friend who used to do all the Mortiz window tint, stripes etc....new owners don't pay.

 

[GMBoy]

I've got the same spray insulation in my shop - stuff is amazing!

 

[The_Nuke]

FCA's procedure for replacing rear springs on LX/LC cars is to drop the rear cradle. Nuts to that, especially in a garage with floor jack instead of lift. Unhinging control arms works just fine and is doable by competent shade-trees.