Pentosynth 5W40 - 10,000 mi - '01 VW 2.8L 12v VR6

[rocketPack]

Hello,

I just got back my 3rd sample and this time it had something a bit alarming - a lot of copper. I typically drive the car very gently, I don't go anywhere near redline and I am careful not to stall or anything like that; that doesn't meant I'm afraid to punch it getting on the freeway though, but overall I would say I treat it well (I bought it used at 26k miles and am the only driver since). I did go to 2 or 3 SCCA Solo2 Autocross events in this car, which means about 6-7 minutes per event of "hard" driving (racing).

Oil was in service from May 3, 2006 until February 3, 2007 (around 1 month longer than the last interval which had almost no copper in it). The analysis report is shown below...

More details:
Vehicle: 2001 Volkswagen Jetta (5-speed manual)
Engine: 2.8L, 12 valve, VR6 (Narrow Angle [15deg] V6 Engine)
I perform all factory suggested maintenance on schedule and use OEM parts...

I appreciate any input you can provide for me!

-Scott

 

[JohnBrowning]

Did you get a TBN on this ??? This oil does not look like it was designed for a 10,000 mile oil change interval. I am only guessing hear because I really do not know this engine well at all. I think it is chemical. If you look at the best results your oil had more calcium,moly and more boron. I think that you would benifit from an oil with more calcium,zink or more boron. It does take much to get copper/bronze to react even if everything mechanical is sound! Try this same interval as it iseems to be your norm but try Rotella-T Synthetic 5W40. I bet that the copper will come down and most of the other wear items will remain about the same. Notice tht you also had a spike in nickle. Your nickle levels doubles and that is just as alarming to me as the spiked copper. Their is not a lot of place that nickle allows are used in an engine and their is no place that has both copper and nickle together!

Does this engine use bronze thrust bushing? If it does a hard launch or detonation event could have cuased both the copper and the nickle. The nickle could be from a wrist pin that took some usual load and the a thrust bearing getting hammered would account for the copper.Not saying that is it but it is likely. The nickle could also be from the valve train but I doubt it since the other metals associated with valve train wear are low to nil.

 

[rocketPack]

I did not get a TBN...

The oil is VW502.00 approved, which means it is specifically intended to be used in my engine for a 10k interval (per manufacturer specifications). I only use VW502.00 oils. I have used Mobil 1 full synth, which is the most popular but I personally did not like the oil (the engine idled very roughly), Castrol Synctec (much better than the Mobile 1, I think the Castrol was what my last sample was).

I will have to get back to you about the thrust bushing, I have no idea about that!

I just took a closer look and I noted the following as well:
- Huge decline in Molybdenum and Boron
- Significant decline in Sodium, Magnesium

Just in case there was any question - I did not use any oil additives or treatments, any fuel additives or treatments, etc. Just gasoline (91 octane, per manuf. specs) and only from big brands (Shell, Mobile, etc.) - I know this practice is contestable but it's mostly a habit for me

 

[StoicDude]

I would really love to know what is up with the German cars and the increased copper levels. It seems like Blackstone has no clue, but meanwhile my 1.8T GTI and somebody elses 330Ci have the same issues.
I know most people on here are saying it is a chemical reaction/ leaching, or something to that effect, but I have not seen any concrete answers or explanations.

 

[Dave H]

Oil cooler on the car? Don't a lot of VW have them (high hp, little motors run hot). If so, I'd go with JohnBrowning saying it is most likely a chemical reaction. A simple change of oils to another VW approved oil would be worth a try.

Hard launches and the running hard may also be a factor. But honestly, your UOA doesn't look bad especially considering the mileage. Everything looks below normal, with the exception of copper and nickle. The nickle is only one point higher (2 instead of 1), so I would actually discount that unless it continues to climb. The copper I'd keep an eye on, but not worry too much over a one time spike (your car has consistently been higher than average in copper). Change oil brands and see if it goes away. If it continues tracking up, then do some more troubleshooting, and enlist the help of an expert like Terry Dyson.

Look at the other wear (or lack thereof) in your engine and be happy. Iron of 9 and lead of 1 in 10,000m miles? Yeah, I'd be happy. Looks like you're doing something right, so keep doing what you are. If the copper concerns you, go back to the previous oil and see if it drops a little. If it does, you know there is a chemical reaction going on, and you can tune the oil from there.

Dave

 

[StoicDude]

Dave, The VW engines do have the oil cooler and I have received the same answer as you stated prior. Thank you for clarifying it.

 

[shanneba]

StoicDude: What gasoline do you use?
I have the BMW 330Ci with high copper and run mostly Chevron gasoline in it. Could the fuel dilution and the Chevron gasoline with Techron be the source of increased copper? I also used FP3000 for the three tanks before my last UOA with 28 ppm copper.

 

[TeeDub]

The rate at which the additives/basestock in the oil react with the softer alloys such as copper is highly dependent on the temperature of the oil. Even a brief period of elevated oil temps from racing could cause this small spike in the copper levels. I think it's a non-issue at this point....

These are excellent results for a 10k interval in a VW/Audi engine (I've owned/tested six of them over the past 25 years). In particular the total solids level of only 0.2% after 10k miles shows you have very little blowby and excellent combustion efficiency, ie the oil is not getty dirty. The extremely good air filtration (OEM "MANN" air filter?), is also contributing to the very low upper engine wear in this application

The German sourced, high end synlubes (Pentosynth/LubeMoly/Fuchs) tend to be excellent, abeit pricy products. I see no reason to change anything here....

TS

 

[unDummy]

A TBN would be a smart option at your next VOA. Sorry, but 10k owners manual recommendation and 502.00 mean nothing. OCI should be based on multiple variables.

A TBN that is too low would answer your question.
A TBN that is normal would force you to look elsewhere, including the quality of your fuel source, any fuel additives used, state of tune, and other failure points.

Also, when switching among brands for UOAs, without a rinse run, you can skew the numbers. Stick with 1 oil for at least 2 similar runs before drawing any conclusions.

 

[StoicDude]

Shanneba, I run Arco fuel in mine. During my UOA I used FP60 except for the last three tanks, because I ran out.

My copper was up in the previous sample without FP60 as well, and there have not been any changes.

I am running GC right now and will see how it fairs up. On my next interval I will be using FP3000 most likely and have a new fuel filter, considering this one will have 60K on it.