As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable. For moderate drains, both products will perform as good as any other overall. However, if you look at some of the data out there and read between the lines, they can't hang with M1/Amsoil over longer drains because their resistance to oxidation is not as great. As long as Pennzoil is in Jiffy Lube and Valvoline has their IOC, I don't see them pushing a long drain oil.
Pennzoil & Valvoline - No Extended Drains
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Originally Posted by buster
As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable..... As long as Pennzoil is in Jiffy Lube and Valvoline has their IOC, I don't see them pushing a long drain oil.
As an amusing side note, how about if you spend the time to list out all the PZ/Valvoline distribution channels.
Once you've done that, please come back and make your argument again, except this time include those other channels as part of your train of thought.
TL
R You put the cart before the horse and forgot they sell tons of product in other ways besides quick lube.......
As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable..... As long as Pennzoil is in Jiffy Lube and Valvoline has their IOC, I don't see them pushing a long drain oil.
As an amusing side note, how about if you spend the time to list out all the PZ/Valvoline distribution channels.
Once you've done that, please come back and make your argument again, except this time include those other channels as part of your train of thought.
TL
R You put the cart before the horse and forgot they sell tons of product in other ways besides quick lube.......
Originally Posted by buster
As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable.
Isn't SOPUS a main supplier of motor oil to BMW NA? As such, these oils need to be capable of meeting BMW's long drain spec requirements.
So, SOPUS may not be "pushing" long drain oils, but they probably know pretty well how to make them.
Also, you can find Pennzoil Euro 0W-40 on the shelves of many local retailers (including Walmart). This oil meets long drain specs such as MB 229.5 and others.
Valvoline sells Euro oils as well, meeting similar long drain specs.
As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable.
Isn't SOPUS a main supplier of motor oil to BMW NA? As such, these oils need to be capable of meeting BMW's long drain spec requirements.
So, SOPUS may not be "pushing" long drain oils, but they probably know pretty well how to make them.
Also, you can find Pennzoil Euro 0W-40 on the shelves of many local retailers (including Walmart). This oil meets long drain specs such as MB 229.5 and others.
Valvoline sells Euro oils as well, meeting similar long drain specs.
Absolutely. Of course they know how to make them, but they don't market a long drain oil for the North American market and that is a fact.
Talking about distrubtion channels is not relative to the fact that Shell and Valvoline don't market a 15k-20k mile oil for the NA PCMO market.
Talking about distrubtion channels is not relative to the fact that Shell and Valvoline don't market a 15k-20k mile oil for the NA PCMO market.
Originally Posted by buster
Absolutely. Of course they know how to make them, but they don't market a long drain oil for the North American market and that is a fact.
Talking about distrubtion channels is not relative to the fact that Shell and Valvoline don't market a 15k-20k mile oil for the NA PCMO market.
So is talking about oxidation resistance limitations without time-series data from multiple test.
Absolutely. Of course they know how to make them, but they don't market a long drain oil for the North American market and that is a fact.
Talking about distrubtion channels is not relative to the fact that Shell and Valvoline don't market a 15k-20k mile oil for the NA PCMO market.
So is talking about oxidation resistance limitations without time-series data from multiple test.
Originally Posted by buster
Absolutely. Of course they know how to make them, but they don't market a long drain oil for the North American market and that is a fact.
Talking about distrubtion channels is not relative to the fact that Shell and Valvoline don't market a 15k-20k mile oil for the NA PCMO market.
Originally Posted by buster
As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable. For moderate drains, both products will perform as good as any other overall. However, if you look at some of the data out there and read between the lines, they can't hang with M1/Amsoil over longer drains because their resistance to oxidation is not as great. As long as Pennzoil is in Jiffy Lube and Valvoline has their IOC, I don't see them pushing a long drain oil.
Let me please clarify something. You are not suggesting that the Pennzoil (SOPUS) and Valvoline (Ashland) distribution channels or refineries are not producing a long-life oil, you are defining as 15k-20k which would be in the range of what M1 AP is marketed as.. Only, that, they are not making a product as and marketing it as Pennzoil Ultra Long Life or something like that, yes?
*simplified: That Pennzoil or Valvoline only are not marketing for sale a super long extended drain product comparable to Mobil 1 Annual Protection, but that they are otherwise capable of doing so ?
Absolutely. Of course they know how to make them, but they don't market a long drain oil for the North American market and that is a fact.
Talking about distrubtion channels is not relative to the fact that Shell and Valvoline don't market a 15k-20k mile oil for the NA PCMO market.
Originally Posted by buster
As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable. For moderate drains, both products will perform as good as any other overall. However, if you look at some of the data out there and read between the lines, they can't hang with M1/Amsoil over longer drains because their resistance to oxidation is not as great. As long as Pennzoil is in Jiffy Lube and Valvoline has their IOC, I don't see them pushing a long drain oil.
Let me please clarify something. You are not suggesting that the Pennzoil (SOPUS) and Valvoline (Ashland) distribution channels or refineries are not producing a long-life oil, you are defining as 15k-20k which would be in the range of what M1 AP is marketed as.. Only, that, they are not making a product as and marketing it as Pennzoil Ultra Long Life or something like that, yes?
*simplified: That Pennzoil or Valvoline only are not marketing for sale a super long extended drain product comparable to Mobil 1 Annual Protection, but that they are otherwise capable of doing so ?
Originally Posted by talest
Originally Posted by buster
Absolutely. Of course they know how to make them, but they don't market a long drain oil for the North American market and that is a fact.
Talking about distrubtion channels is not relative to the fact that Shell and Valvoline don't market a 15k-20k mile oil for the NA PCMO market.
Originally Posted by buster
As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable. For moderate drains, both products will perform as good as any other overall. However, if you look at some of the data out there and read between the lines, they can't hang with M1/Amsoil over longer drains because their resistance to oxidation is not as great. As long as Pennzoil is in Jiffy Lube and Valvoline has their IOC, I don't see them pushing a long drain oil.
Let me please clarify something. You are not suggesting that the Pennzoil (SOPUS) and Valvoline (Ashland) distribution channels or refineries are not producing a long-life oil, you are defining as 15k-20k which would be in the range of what M1 AP is marketed as.. Only, that, they are not making a product as and marketing it as Pennzoil Ultra Long Life or something like that, yes?
*simplified: That Pennzoil or Valvoline only are not marketing for sale a super long extended drain product comparable to Mobil 1 Annual Protection, but that they are otherwise capable of doing so ?
Correct. This isn't a slam on PZ/Valvoline. Both are excellent.
Originally Posted by buster
Absolutely. Of course they know how to make them, but they don't market a long drain oil for the North American market and that is a fact.
Talking about distrubtion channels is not relative to the fact that Shell and Valvoline don't market a 15k-20k mile oil for the NA PCMO market.
Originally Posted by buster
As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable. For moderate drains, both products will perform as good as any other overall. However, if you look at some of the data out there and read between the lines, they can't hang with M1/Amsoil over longer drains because their resistance to oxidation is not as great. As long as Pennzoil is in Jiffy Lube and Valvoline has their IOC, I don't see them pushing a long drain oil.
Let me please clarify something. You are not suggesting that the Pennzoil (SOPUS) and Valvoline (Ashland) distribution channels or refineries are not producing a long-life oil, you are defining as 15k-20k which would be in the range of what M1 AP is marketed as.. Only, that, they are not making a product as and marketing it as Pennzoil Ultra Long Life or something like that, yes?
*simplified: That Pennzoil or Valvoline only are not marketing for sale a super long extended drain product comparable to Mobil 1 Annual Protection, but that they are otherwise capable of doing so ?
Correct. This isn't a slam on PZ/Valvoline. Both are excellent.
Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by talest
Originally Posted by buster
Absolutely. Of course they know how to make them, but they don't market a long drain oil for the North American market and that is a fact.
Talking about distrubtion channels is not relative to the fact that Shell and Valvoline don't market a 15k-20k mile oil for the NA PCMO market.
Originally Posted by buster
As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable. For moderate drains, both products will perform as good as any other overall. However, if you look at some of the data out there and read between the lines, they can't hang with M1/Amsoil over longer drains because their resistance to oxidation is not as great. As long as Pennzoil is in Jiffy Lube and Valvoline has their IOC, I don't see them pushing a long drain oil.
Let me please clarify something. You are not suggesting that the Pennzoil (SOPUS) and Valvoline (Ashland) distribution channels or refineries are not producing a long-life oil, you are defining as 15k-20k which would be in the range of what M1 AP is marketed as.. Only, that, they are not making a product as and marketing it as Pennzoil Ultra Long Life or something like that, yes?
*simplified: That Pennzoil or Valvoline only are not marketing for sale a super long extended drain product comparable to Mobil 1 Annual Protection, but that they are otherwise capable of doing so ?
Correct. This isn't a slam on PZ/Valvoline. Both are excellent.
Alright, cool. I thought I read the whole thing correctly. Thanks for the clarification.. Hopefully, it keeps the thing on-topic? lol
Originally Posted by talest
Originally Posted by buster
Absolutely. Of course they know how to make them, but they don't market a long drain oil for the North American market and that is a fact.
Talking about distrubtion channels is not relative to the fact that Shell and Valvoline don't market a 15k-20k mile oil for the NA PCMO market.
Originally Posted by buster
As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable. For moderate drains, both products will perform as good as any other overall. However, if you look at some of the data out there and read between the lines, they can't hang with M1/Amsoil over longer drains because their resistance to oxidation is not as great. As long as Pennzoil is in Jiffy Lube and Valvoline has their IOC, I don't see them pushing a long drain oil.
Let me please clarify something. You are not suggesting that the Pennzoil (SOPUS) and Valvoline (Ashland) distribution channels or refineries are not producing a long-life oil, you are defining as 15k-20k which would be in the range of what M1 AP is marketed as.. Only, that, they are not making a product as and marketing it as Pennzoil Ultra Long Life or something like that, yes?
*simplified: That Pennzoil or Valvoline only are not marketing for sale a super long extended drain product comparable to Mobil 1 Annual Protection, but that they are otherwise capable of doing so ?
Correct. This isn't a slam on PZ/Valvoline. Both are excellent.
Alright, cool. I thought I read the whole thing correctly. Thanks for the clarification.. Hopefully, it keeps the thing on-topic? lol
*Let me clarify my OP. I'm basing my opinion of their oils not being as long drain capable from some of the oxidation testing I've seen from competitors. However, that isn't necessarily accurate either and I'm speculating. I'd say PUP/PP is likely capable. Valvoline not so sure.
My point though was they just don't have the incentive to market such a product due to their quick lube presence.
My point though was they just don't have the incentive to market such a product due to their quick lube presence.
Member '2006ChargerRT' or something like that, has done multiple 15K+ runs with Pennzoil Platinum, it is MORE than capable of doing longer runs.
I have never understood why PZ never marketed a long-drain oil, some will want to 'try it', others will stick to shorter intervals. You get both markets that way.
When Ultra very first came out, it was marketed as a 15k oil, but that vanished in less than 6 months, and went back to OEM intervals.
Valvoline has NEVER been in the extended-drain game, ever. They espoused 3k for longer than anyone.
I have never understood why PZ never marketed a long-drain oil, some will want to 'try it', others will stick to shorter intervals. You get both markets that way.
When Ultra very first came out, it was marketed as a 15k oil, but that vanished in less than 6 months, and went back to OEM intervals.
Valvoline has NEVER been in the extended-drain game, ever. They espoused 3k for longer than anyone.
Originally Posted by addyguy
Member '2006ChargerRT' or something like that, has done multiple 15K+ runs with Pennzoil Platinum, it is MORE than capable of doing longer runs.
I have never understood why PZ never marketed a long-drain oil, some will want to 'try it', others will stick to shorter intervals. You get both markets that way.
When Ultra very first came out, it was marketed as a 15k oil, but that vanished in less than 6 months, and went back to OEM intervals.
Valvoline has NEVER been in the extended-drain game, ever. They espoused 3k for longer than anyone.
I agree.. I think the reason though is because they want more oil changes via their quick lube places.
Member '2006ChargerRT' or something like that, has done multiple 15K+ runs with Pennzoil Platinum, it is MORE than capable of doing longer runs.
I have never understood why PZ never marketed a long-drain oil, some will want to 'try it', others will stick to shorter intervals. You get both markets that way.
When Ultra very first came out, it was marketed as a 15k oil, but that vanished in less than 6 months, and went back to OEM intervals.
Valvoline has NEVER been in the extended-drain game, ever. They espoused 3k for longer than anyone.
I agree.. I think the reason though is because they want more oil changes via their quick lube places.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted by buster
As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable. For moderate drains, both products will perform as good as any other overall. However, if you look at some of the data out there and read between the lines, they can't hang with M1/Amsoil over longer drains because their resistance to oxidation is not as great. As long as Pennzoil is in Jiffy Lube and Valvoline has their IOC, I don't see them pushing a long drain oil.
False equivalence by that someone who pointed that out to you. I've not seen the data.
But it is interesting they don't market one. Good thread.
As someone pointed out to me, being both PZ/Valvoline are in the quick lube business, there is no incentive for them to make their oils long drain capable. For moderate drains, both products will perform as good as any other overall. However, if you look at some of the data out there and read between the lines, they can't hang with M1/Amsoil over longer drains because their resistance to oxidation is not as great. As long as Pennzoil is in Jiffy Lube and Valvoline has their IOC, I don't see them pushing a long drain oil.
False equivalence by that someone who pointed that out to you. I've not seen the data.
But it is interesting they don't market one. Good thread.
You must first define what constitutes an extended drain.
Many newer cars will allow 10K drains either as recommended, like Toyota, or allowed per the IOLM in many other makes.
Beyond that, the name isn't necessarily the game.
Does anyone really believe that the premium offerings from SOPUS and Valvoline aren't as capable of 15K drains as M1 EP is?
You also need to consider that the average quicky lube customer is looking to get in and out as cheaply as possible, while the average enthusiast mechanically inclined driver is more interested in the oil he's putting in his engine.
There is no reason that operating quicky lube locations would encourage any blender to avoid offering longer drain products, since these oils are aimed at a different and much smaller market.
Reading between the lines I suspect that VME and PUP are both as capable of extended drains as is M1 EP and maybe M1 AP.
Many newer cars will allow 10K drains either as recommended, like Toyota, or allowed per the IOLM in many other makes.
Beyond that, the name isn't necessarily the game.
Does anyone really believe that the premium offerings from SOPUS and Valvoline aren't as capable of 15K drains as M1 EP is?
You also need to consider that the average quicky lube customer is looking to get in and out as cheaply as possible, while the average enthusiast mechanically inclined driver is more interested in the oil he's putting in his engine.
There is no reason that operating quicky lube locations would encourage any blender to avoid offering longer drain products, since these oils are aimed at a different and much smaller market.
Reading between the lines I suspect that VME and PUP are both as capable of extended drains as is M1 EP and maybe M1 AP.
Originally Posted by fdcg27
You must first define what constitutes an extended drain.
Many newer cars will allow 10K drains either as recommended, like Toyota, or allowed per the IOLM in many other makes.
Beyond that, the name isn't necessarily the game.
Does anyone really believe that the premium offerings from SOPUS and Valvoline aren't as capable of 15K drains as M1 EP is?
You also need to consider that the average quicky lube customer is looking to get in and out as cheaply as possible, while the average enthusiast mechanically inclined driver is more interested in the oil he's putting in his engine.
There is no reason that operating quicky lube locations would encourage any blender to avoid offering longer drain products, since these oils are aimed at a different and much smaller market.
Reading between the lines I suspect that VME and PUP are both as capable of extended drains as is M1 EP and maybe M1 AP.
I agree somewhat. I do not agree that VME and PUP are as capable as M1 EP or AP. I just don't think they have the oxidation resistance.
I still think it benefits Pennzoil and Valvoline to not market extended drain oils (extended drain meaning a defined interval like 15-20-25k miles). They would much rather play it safe and let the OEM interval dictate and sell more oil.
You must first define what constitutes an extended drain.
Many newer cars will allow 10K drains either as recommended, like Toyota, or allowed per the IOLM in many other makes.
Beyond that, the name isn't necessarily the game.
Does anyone really believe that the premium offerings from SOPUS and Valvoline aren't as capable of 15K drains as M1 EP is?
You also need to consider that the average quicky lube customer is looking to get in and out as cheaply as possible, while the average enthusiast mechanically inclined driver is more interested in the oil he's putting in his engine.
There is no reason that operating quicky lube locations would encourage any blender to avoid offering longer drain products, since these oils are aimed at a different and much smaller market.
Reading between the lines I suspect that VME and PUP are both as capable of extended drains as is M1 EP and maybe M1 AP.
I agree somewhat. I do not agree that VME and PUP are as capable as M1 EP or AP. I just don't think they have the oxidation resistance.
I still think it benefits Pennzoil and Valvoline to not market extended drain oils (extended drain meaning a defined interval like 15-20-25k miles). They would much rather play it safe and let the OEM interval dictate and sell more oil.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Claws back in paws - but they don't formulate for this purpose. 10k seems a wise limit.
Question: since we had some buzz around which M1's used some GTL … how many of those were EP or AP and used only GTL as PP does ?
Question: since we had some buzz around which M1's used some GTL … how many of those were EP or AP and used only GTL as PP does ?
Only a few grades of regular M1 use GTL. AP/EP use PAO (some majority PAO) and Group III+ (Visom likely). The GTL stocks seemed to be used for the regular Mobil 1. EP/AP 0w20 are 70% PAO. I don't see any GTL in the extended drain M1 oil per MSDS.
Thinking about this a bit more, both XOM and Castrol are major supplier to the QL market; and they both offer an extended-drain product.
Unless you are saying that PZ/Valvoline get MOST of their business from the QL industry, whereas XOM and Castrol do not?
Thoughts?
Unless you are saying that PZ/Valvoline get MOST of their business from the QL industry, whereas XOM and Castrol do not?
Thoughts?
The problem with quick oil change places, and I don't care how the oil barrels are labeled, you never know what you're getting.
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Originally Posted by addyguy
Thinking about this a bit more, both XOM and Castrol are major supplier to the QL market; and they both offer an extended-drain product.
Unless you are saying that PZ/Valvoline get MOST of their business from the QL industry, whereas XOM and Castrol do not?
Thoughts?
Good questions. I don't have the answer. I can understand Valvoline's position and Pennzoil's. Whether it's a formulation issue or part of their business model I couldn't tell you. My guess is that they sell so much oil via the QL market due to Pennzoil - Jiffy Lube and Valvoline with their IOC.
XOM sells base oils to Valvoline and other companies so it also benefits them as well. XOM's most notable oil is Mobil 1. I think Pennzoil/QuakerState and Valvoline have more brand recognition for most of the PCMO market. In the synthetic world though, Mobil 1 is the most popular top brand synthetic.
Thinking about this a bit more, both XOM and Castrol are major supplier to the QL market; and they both offer an extended-drain product.
Unless you are saying that PZ/Valvoline get MOST of their business from the QL industry, whereas XOM and Castrol do not?
Thoughts?
Good questions. I don't have the answer. I can understand Valvoline's position and Pennzoil's. Whether it's a formulation issue or part of their business model I couldn't tell you. My guess is that they sell so much oil via the QL market due to Pennzoil - Jiffy Lube and Valvoline with their IOC.
XOM sells base oils to Valvoline and other companies so it also benefits them as well. XOM's most notable oil is Mobil 1. I think Pennzoil/QuakerState and Valvoline have more brand recognition for most of the PCMO market. In the synthetic world though, Mobil 1 is the most popular top brand synthetic.
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