Pennzoil Ultra & UOA's

[c3po]

I am pretty sure that we will soon be seeing some used oil analysis on Pennzoil Ultra, and many members will be comparing this oil to Pennzoil Platinum. I am sure if the PU used oil analysis do not come back as being better than PP or if they are the same then some members will be upset.

I really do not think we can compare both PU and PP by looking at used oil analysis. I just can't see a used oil analysis telling us whether PU is keeping the engine as clean or cleaner than PP.

From my personal experience using PP I have noticed that it did clean up my valvetrain on my El Camino, of course I did have MMO in the oil, but I do have to give credit to PP.

 

[Ben99GT]

Define "the same", are we talking wear metals or shear resistance and TBN? PU should have more TBN reserve than PP, and I'm hoping Ultra 5w30 is a little more shear resistant.

Wear metal comparison?

On cleaning ability, I'll take Pennzoil's word for it... they do make both.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: c3po
I really do not think we can compare both PU and PP by looking at used oil analysis.

Yup, a $20 used oil analysis was never meant to be used to compare one oil against the other, alas, people will still attempt to compare them based on it.

 

[DieselTech]

Sent it in today 7921 miles on the sample....We shall see shortly

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT


Wear metal comparison?

They will never learn. You can write post after post, real world experience in teardowns vs used oil analysis, and a guy with 50 years experience with fleets and the typical bitoger is still going to compare oils based on wear metals of a $20 used oil analysis.

 

[c3po]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Define " the same "


I am talking about wear metals, of course I am saying that if a member has a few used oil analysis with PP and then has a few used oil analysis with PU and the iron numbers are the same that we cannot say that PP is just as good as PU.

The only way to measure how clean an engine really is would be to take the valve covers off or tear down the engine.

If Pennzoil is saying that PU cleans 36% more than PP then at this time I have to believe what Pennzoil is saying based on my experience from using PP.

 

[DieselTech]

So your saying if it indeed is cleaning better no matter what on the 1st OCI of this product wear metals should drop if it's a good product??

Interesting

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT


Wear metal comparison?

They will never learn. You can write post after post, real world experience in teardowns vs used oil analysis, and a guy with 50 years experience with fleets and the typical bitoger is still going to compare oils based on wear metals of a $20 used oil analysis.


Yep :shakeshead:

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT


Wear metal comparison?

They will never learn. You can write post after post, real world experience in teardowns vs used oil analysis, and a guy with 50 years experience with fleets and the typical bitoger is still going to compare oils based on wear metals of a $20 used oil analysis.


On the other hand I would say a few things;

1. Oils have improved over the last 50 years.

2. Fleet service is VERY different over passenger service.

3. If a vehicle is running fine and produces good used oil analysis who/why teardown?

used oil analysis DO have a purpose. They DO give data that is useful. PLENTY of possible life ENDING situations have been PREVENTED using used oil analysis so saying that teardowns is the only way to tell if something is working is a little false.

bill

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT


Wear metal comparison?

They will never learn. You can write post after post, real world experience in teardowns vs used oil analysis, and a guy with 50 years experience with fleets and the typical bitoger is still going to compare oils based on wear metals of a $20 used oil analysis.


On the other hand I would say a few things;

1. Oils have improved over the last 50 years.

2. Fleet service is VERY different over passenger service.

3. If a vehicle is running fine and produces good used oil analysis who/why teardown?

used oil analysis DO have a purpose. They DO give data that is useful. PLENTY of possible life ENDING situations have been PREVENTED using used oil analysis so saying that teardowns is the only way to tell if something is working is a little false.

bill


Nobody is arguing that used oil analysis aren't useful. They are extremely useful, just not for comparing oils based on wear metals.

 

[c3po]

Originally Posted By: DieselTech
So your saying if it indeed is cleaning better no matter what on the 1st OCI of this product wear metals should drop if it's a good product??

Interesting


My thought is if this PU is doing a good job of cleaning then maybe this oil will have an easier time flowing through the engine since there is less junk obstructing the oil flow.

I always thought if you were using a different oil it would take maybe the 2nd or 3rd Oil Analysis to make a comparison.


Hopefully Johnny or Gary Allan chimes in.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

Originally Posted By: DieselTech
Sent it in today 7921 miles on the sample....We shall see shortly



Yes we shall! Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha.

 

[c3po]

Originally Posted By: DieselTech
Sent it in today 7921 miles on the sample....We shall see shortly


DieselTech, what oil were you using on your last OCI.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

Nobody is arguing that used oil analysis aren't useful. They are extremely useful, just not for comparing oils based on wear metals.


So we can tell when a engine is having a problem with a used oil analysis when the metals start to increase but if the used oil analysis metals increase with one oil but not the other the data is not valid?

What would cause a used oil analysis to show higher metals with one oil but not another?

To me it does not matter since the only time I've had to tear apart a motor is when a used oil analysis showed coolant leaks. (twice). All the other engines I've taken well past 200k I never ran a used oil analysis.

But used oil analysis do show something IMO. Most the people saying that they don't is becuase their oil does not do well with them. (and when it does the used oil analysis is valid)

Just my 3 cents.

Bill

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT


Wear metal comparison?

They will never learn. You can write post after post, real world experience in teardowns vs used oil analysis, and a guy with 50 years experience with fleets and the typical bitoger is still going to compare oils based on wear metals of a $20 used oil analysis.


On the other hand I would say a few things;

1. Oils have improved over the last 50 years.

2. Fleet service is VERY different over passenger service.

3. If a vehicle is running fine and produces good used oil analysis who/why teardown?

used oil analysis DO have a purpose. They DO give data that is useful. PLENTY of possible life ENDING situations have been PREVENTED using used oil analysis so saying that teardowns is the only way to tell if something is working is a little false.

bill


Nobody is arguing that used oil analysis aren't useful. They are extremely useful, just not for comparing oils based on wear metals.


That was exactly my point. Somehow it always gets turned around into people putting words into my mouth and assuming I think they're worthless.

 

[DieselTech]

Originally Posted By: c3po
Originally Posted By: DieselTech
Sent it in today 7921 miles on the sample....We shall see shortly


DieselTech, what oil were you using on your last OCI.


That truck has had a steady dose of Amsoil or redline for it's entire life. For the last 4 OCI it was on Redline......So it's as clean as it gets.

I'm with the other guys it's very hard to determine product quality looking at wear metals. I mainly looking at retention and Vis. Ultra did go back in also.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

Nobody is arguing that used oil analysis aren't useful. They are extremely useful, just not for comparing oils based on wear metals.


So we can tell when a engine is having a problem with a used oil analysis when the metals start to increase but if the used oil analysis metals increase with one oil but not the other the data is not valid?


Do you realize oils with higher levels of ZDDP often show increases in wear metals? You realize highly polar oils will often show a spike in wear metals on the initial changeover due to stripping existing oxidation layers? Do you realize in both cases no more actual wear is occurring?

Do you realize emission spectroscopy used in $20 used oil analysis only measures wear particles in a narrow micron range? Do you realize significant part failures can often show little to no elevated wear metals because of this limited range of particle detection?

We aren't talking about a sudden 300 ppm spike out of the blue with regular trending here, we are talking about one oil producing 20 ppm of Fe over 7500 miles and another producing 10 ppm over 7500 miles here and proclaiming the 10 ppm oil to be "better". used oil analysis aren't meant to be used that way, and can't be with any semblance of legitimacy.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN

That was exactly my point. Somehow it always gets turned around into people putting words into my mouth and assuming I think they're worthless.


Okay, so they are have no "value"? Most people quoting Doug have the mindset that they are useless. Some oil companies (again when their product does not do well in a used oil analysis state they have no value) Of course a $40 used oil analysis has more value than a $20 one. (its twice as accurate)

The bottom line is they do have a purpose and Doug and whoever wants to agree with him have my respect, but I disagree with them.

Of course, I disagree with a lot of what is posted here so nothing new.

Take care, bill

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah


But used oil analysis do show something IMO. Most the people saying that they don't is becuase their oil does not do well with them. (and when it does the used oil analysis is valid)


Bill, I know that you are a big proponent of conventional oil. Believe it or not If I didn't get so many killer deals on Synthetic I would probably just go buy the new GF-5 Pennzoil or Motorcraft.

How often do you run a used oil analysis on one of your own? I mean they are more expensive than a conventional oil change so I'm curious what your take on it is? I've never done one myself.

 

[c3po]

How are we going to judge Pennzoil Ultra, because it sure sounds like a used oil analysis is not going to give us all of the answers.

Are we going to judge how smooth the engine runs or maybe look at how dirty the PU comes out when an oil change is done.

I can remember changing my oil and noticed that the PP came out darker versus the other oil's that I have drained out.