Pennzoil Platinum Vs Mobil 1
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Johnny, you have not been gone from your job for 6 months and you already using Mobil products!!
J/J
I have used 6 different type of oils (although they have all been xw-30 oils) and noticed no difference in engine noise.
I don't think I have ever heard a difference in 20+ years changing oil now that I think of it....
J/J
I have used 6 different type of oils (although they have all been xw-30 oils) and noticed no difference in engine noise.
I don't think I have ever heard a difference in 20+ years changing oil now that I think of it....
manicrodder
$50 site donor 2022
I have used Mobil 1 10w30, GC, and Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 in my turbo Cruiser and I can not distinguish any noise differances. However, I do notice about .5 mpg increase with the PP. This average increase is from 15.3 to 15.8.
I only drive it hard when it is fully warmed up.
I only drive it hard when it is fully warmed up.
Yes, I know, I shall be shot at dawn. I drained my platinum at first only temporarily while I cleaned my oil pickup. When I realized how much crud was IN my oil pan, I didn't want to reintroduce the old oil. Since I was 3 days from receiving a shipment of Redline's finest, I wasn't going to waste a lot of good oil. I wanted to see if things DID get quieter w/ thicker vis anyway, soooooo.......quote:
Originally posted by Johnny:
You pumped out the Platinum to put in some Lucas
Go to the general auto and lube section and look at the "I'm an idiot" mix thread to see what went in w/ the Goo-cas.
During the past few decades of changing oil, I've never noticed a significant difference in sound levels between oils. Then again, maybe my ears have spent to many years next to aircraft jet engines, open headers and guns that make big booms and this is a recent phenomena?
Recently, it seems that more people than ever have claimed this M1 noise so I've tried measuring this with a sound level meter after changing from a thick dino to M1 GF-4 10w30. Results...nada.
My current theory is it may have to do with various oil formulation's adhesive and/or cohesive properties which might effect it's sound dampening abilities. One can find this effect put to use in steel stampings where a very thin viscoelastic damping materials can substantially reduce noise, vibration, and harshness in automotive and other applications.
http://www.quietsteel.com/auto-applications.html
http://www.quietsteel.com/tech-how_qs_works.htm
Another example of how a fluid can dampen sound is the space shuttle sound suppression system.
Recently, it seems that more people than ever have claimed this M1 noise so I've tried measuring this with a sound level meter after changing from a thick dino to M1 GF-4 10w30. Results...nada.
My current theory is it may have to do with various oil formulation's adhesive and/or cohesive properties which might effect it's sound dampening abilities. One can find this effect put to use in steel stampings where a very thin viscoelastic damping materials can substantially reduce noise, vibration, and harshness in automotive and other applications.
http://www.quietsteel.com/auto-applications.html
http://www.quietsteel.com/tech-how_qs_works.htm
Another example of how a fluid can dampen sound is the space shuttle sound suppression system.
A good set of ears is going to be hundreds of times more sensitive to *differences* in sound, and is going to be able to pick out what is important (e.g., metallic clangs) from "noise," i.e., fanbelts, air intake, exhaust, etc...
A sound level meter isn't going to tell you a darn thing. It's too insensitive.
By your own admission, you no longer have a good set of ears... next time ask someone younger with less noise exposure what they think.
I,
A meter to measure sound is going to be more accurate than ones ears. What you think you hear at one time will actually change with differences in the level of humidity, surface differences or angles where the noise is being distributed. Also add the differences your hearing based on the conditions of your body at a particular time. If you have sinus problems, allergies, cold, flu or noise induced damaged whatever, there is a variance. Best means of measurement is instruments period! Thats why we have used oil analysis and decibal meters.
A meter to measure sound is going to be more accurate than ones ears. What you think you hear at one time will actually change with differences in the level of humidity, surface differences or angles where the noise is being distributed. Also add the differences your hearing based on the conditions of your body at a particular time. If you have sinus problems, allergies, cold, flu or noise induced damaged whatever, there is a variance. Best means of measurement is instruments period! Thats why we have used oil analysis and decibal meters.
BrianWC: Just giving you a hard time, all in fun.
blupupher: Just taking one for the team. At 5k the Mobil 1 comes out and PP goes back in, even if the Mobil 1 is as quite as a church mouse. One of the fringe benefits of my retirement is that I have 40 cases of 5W20 Platinum and I intend to use all of them.
blupupher: Just taking one for the team. At 5k the Mobil 1 comes out and PP goes back in, even if the Mobil 1 is as quite as a church mouse. One of the fringe benefits of my retirement is that I have 40 cases of 5W20 Platinum and I intend to use all of them.
Recall that my 2000 Ford 4.6L SOHC V8 has been making weird noises in the winter with Mobil 1 5w30 and GC 0W-30. I wanted to switch the crank pulley from the Steeda underdrive back to the OEM pulley. This time I followed the FSM procedures for tightening the bolt and the noises have disappeared even when using Mobil 1 5w30.
I'm just happy to see a Group V/other synthetic for sale at less than $4/qt at a reasonable price.
With crude oil going up, most of the conventional oils are now $2/qt, *** over? So it makes almost no sense to use $2/qt conventional when you can get Group IV/V full synthetics at $4-$5/qt.
I'm just happy to see a Group V/other synthetic for sale at less than $4/qt at a reasonable price.
With crude oil going up, most of the conventional oils are now $2/qt, *** over? So it makes almost no sense to use $2/qt conventional when you can get Group IV/V full synthetics at $4-$5/qt.
Yet no amount of electronics can tune a violin as well as a good violinist.
If instrumentation was that good we wouldn't need doctors that could hear diferent heart murmurs, auto mechanics that could listen to and then diagnose engine problems, or musicians that could tune their own fiddles.
A sound level meter picks up the intensity of the noise. Or the pressure changes caused by it. It does not detect a variance in frequency.
An engine may make the same amount of noise with different oils, but the noise may change in frequency. With a good sound level meter one can test different bands of frequencies, but it is still just a rough pressure indicator that has to be calibrated before and after each use due to subtle changes in atmospheric pressure that are constantly rising or falling. It is a decent objective tool for measureing the sound intensity but is a poor measure for what is percieved! The human ear is much more complex.
Here is a source Sound Levels
SNIP--
"A-Weighted Sound Level
The sound pressure level has the advantage of being an objective yet a handy measure of sound intensity, but it has the drawback that it is far from being an accurate measure of what is actually perceived. This is because the ear's sensitivity is strongly dependent on frequency. Indeed, whearas a sound of 1 kHz and 0 dB is already audible, you need to raise up to 37 dB to be able to hear a tone of 100 Hz. The same holds for sounds above 16 kHz.
When this dependence of the sensation of loudness with frequency was discovered and measured (by Fletcher and Munson, in 1933), it was thought that by using an adequate filtering (i.e., frequency weighting) network, it would be possible to objectively measure that sensation. This filtering network would work in a similar way as the ear does, i.e., it would attenuate low frequency and very high frequencies, leaving middle frequencies almost unchanged. In other words, it would perform a bass and a treble cut prior to actually measuring the sound."
Intensity =Decibals
Frequency = Hertz
On the sound level meter one should take into account that 1 dB is a 10% increase in intensity or sound pressure so it is indeed a rough measurement.
A sound level meter only measures dB
Differences in frequencies are what we hear from the engine bay. The sound level will almost always remain the same with a piece of equipment such as a IC engine with auxilleries attached yet the human ear is sensitive to frequency changes.
[ April 08, 2006, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Bryanccfshr ]
An engine may make the same amount of noise with different oils, but the noise may change in frequency. With a good sound level meter one can test different bands of frequencies, but it is still just a rough pressure indicator that has to be calibrated before and after each use due to subtle changes in atmospheric pressure that are constantly rising or falling. It is a decent objective tool for measureing the sound intensity but is a poor measure for what is percieved! The human ear is much more complex.
Here is a source Sound Levels
SNIP--
"A-Weighted Sound Level
The sound pressure level has the advantage of being an objective yet a handy measure of sound intensity, but it has the drawback that it is far from being an accurate measure of what is actually perceived. This is because the ear's sensitivity is strongly dependent on frequency. Indeed, whearas a sound of 1 kHz and 0 dB is already audible, you need to raise up to 37 dB to be able to hear a tone of 100 Hz. The same holds for sounds above 16 kHz.
When this dependence of the sensation of loudness with frequency was discovered and measured (by Fletcher and Munson, in 1933), it was thought that by using an adequate filtering (i.e., frequency weighting) network, it would be possible to objectively measure that sensation. This filtering network would work in a similar way as the ear does, i.e., it would attenuate low frequency and very high frequencies, leaving middle frequencies almost unchanged. In other words, it would perform a bass and a treble cut prior to actually measuring the sound."
Intensity =Decibals
Frequency = Hertz
On the sound level meter one should take into account that 1 dB is a 10% increase in intensity or sound pressure so it is indeed a rough measurement.
A sound level meter only measures dB
Differences in frequencies are what we hear from the engine bay. The sound level will almost always remain the same with a piece of equipment such as a IC engine with auxilleries attached yet the human ear is sensitive to frequency changes.
[ April 08, 2006, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Bryanccfshr ]
I think you are confusing intensity with frquency. The "Noise" or unwanted sounds from fans, belts alternators injectors, ac compressors contributes to the overall intensity on an A weighted scale or the Db level. An annoying or different sound from a different oil for example may not increase the intensity of the sound level at all(no increase in dB but may have a frequency or pitch that is annoying to the human ear.
Each person will have different perceptions on sounds. That's why everyone cannot sing or paly an instrument.
Unfortunately there is not much readily available equipment that can detect noise the same as the human ear. The sound pressure meeter is a rough instrument.
If you can detect differences in frequency by ear it is intuitive to find a solution if you percieve the sound to be annoying. Anything else would be compromising your enjoyment of your automobile. If you had a bad idler pulley that was making a horrible noise when the engine ran would you not replace it? Although the consequences may be differnt the oil selection can have a similar impact on driver enjoyment and confidence in the machine.
Each person will have different perceptions on sounds. That's why everyone cannot sing or paly an instrument.
Unfortunately there is not much readily available equipment that can detect noise the same as the human ear. The sound pressure meeter is a rough instrument.
If you can detect differences in frequency by ear it is intuitive to find a solution if you percieve the sound to be annoying. Anything else would be compromising your enjoyment of your automobile. If you had a bad idler pulley that was making a horrible noise when the engine ran would you not replace it? Although the consequences may be differnt the oil selection can have a similar impact on driver enjoyment and confidence in the machine.
I understand what you are saying about the frequencies. My primary concern is how much energy makes it to my body and ears. I would rather it be dissipated in the engine.
I see. The engine is not an isolation chamber. The noise of combustion is dampened by the exhuast. The noise of the intake is dampened by intake design and the internal noise of the mechanical workings of the engine is dampened by the matalurgy of the engine and the behavior of the fluids inside of it. Some oils may stick to the valve or rocker covers better as they are flung up from the mechanical action acting like an undercoating to your car body and dampening the noise from that area while other oils will flow downhill very quickly and not "stick " to provide a film in ths area allowing the sound to travel through the metal less impeded.(This could explain cold start valvetrain noise differences) Indeed the sound may be no different but the oils behavior can cause us to percieve differences in sound between different fluids.
It may not mean an oil is better or worse due to the perception of noise. It may be an indicator of an oils behavior and is perhaps a worthwile subject for further study. I know just enough to be dangerous but I am starting to believe that quieter may not indicate better performance but rather indicate a behavior in oil.
Edit to add- I may look like I am switching positions but I have not formed a position yet, I am thinking out lo- er, in text.
It may not mean an oil is better or worse due to the perception of noise. It may be an indicator of an oils behavior and is perhaps a worthwile subject for further study. I know just enough to be dangerous but I am starting to believe that quieter may not indicate better performance but rather indicate a behavior in oil.
Edit to add- I may look like I am switching positions but I have not formed a position yet, I am thinking out lo- er, in text.
Bryan wrote: "...quieter may not indicate better performance but rather indicate a behavior..."
Concise. Accurate.
Next topic!
Concise. Accurate.
Next topic!
This is incorrect. dBs is just a convenient unit and is used to used to express relative difference in power or intensity, usually between two acoustic or electric signals, equal to ten times the common logarithm of the ratio of the two levels.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/intens.html
On my sound level meter, I can easily detect a tenth of a dB at 70 dBA.
Yes and no. I agree that the human ear will detect frequency changes that may not be detected by the sound level meter and it may require a decent audio spectrum analyzer to see the difference.
However, when taking measurements of one of my cars at idle, I can take a medium size screwdriver and lightly tap on the various parts of the engine and easily detect it with my sound level meter. (Kinda' like the ticking sound you hear when a hot engine is cooling) I'm guesstimating that the strength of this tap would probably take a few hundred years of continuous tapping at ~3 taps/sec to show any visual detectable wear on either the screwdriver or the part in question. I therefore conclude, that if anybody can hear a difference in sound between oils, it's most likely just an annoyance to some at worse, and highly unlikely to cause any difference in the wear of one's engine. Otherwise, we'd see many more used oil analysis with at least a magnitude increase in wear metals/particle counts.
427Z06, I was oversimplyfying( I am accustomed to teaching adults that are not technical by nature and so I do not use technical terms well).
It is commonly accepted that an increase of 10Db is a doubling of intensity in noise measurements. For my applications I use the A weighted scale and I am most concerned with hearing loss and not accoustic values. The most complex my formulas for noise get is determining TWA's for exposure and trying to keep the averages below a threshold through the normal engineeering, adminstrative and protective means.
I agree that these noises from an engine are not much more than an annoyance. If they annoy a person enough that it devalues the ownership experience I can see the point in applying engieneering controls to reduce the noise. (additional sound proofing under the hood or using a differnt oil that due to it's behavior does not produce as mush noise) This certainly does not mean that a quieter oil protects better. The contrary may be true, it is hard to tell without more study.
It is commonly accepted that an increase of 10Db is a doubling of intensity in noise measurements. For my applications I use the A weighted scale and I am most concerned with hearing loss and not accoustic values. The most complex my formulas for noise get is determining TWA's for exposure and trying to keep the averages below a threshold through the normal engineeering, adminstrative and protective means.
I agree that these noises from an engine are not much more than an annoyance. If they annoy a person enough that it devalues the ownership experience I can see the point in applying engieneering controls to reduce the noise. (additional sound proofing under the hood or using a differnt oil that due to it's behavior does not produce as mush noise) This certainly does not mean that a quieter oil protects better. The contrary may be true, it is hard to tell without more study.
noisy engines are the suck.
This is a little more in depth than really can be explained here. You have the fact that the noise reflected through the engine bay from a closed hood will be different when the exterior body panels are heated to different degrees. Cold metal will dampen noise differnt from hot metal. We also deal with the issue of newer synthetic lubricants emitting a tone that is different from the same lubricant being in the sump at the end of the interval.
Another example is having the vehicle parked over dirt. The tone will be different than when a vehicle is surrounded by a hard object such as concrete.
Long story short. Noise doesn't indicate increased wear. Its ones perception that the noise may unbearable enough that the increased wear is a better alternative than increased noise. I personally hear the noise that is spoken of but, I find the older the oil the better the noise, driveability and mpg's. I also have the comfort of very good used oil analysis in motors with so called "noisy oils".
Another example is having the vehicle parked over dirt. The tone will be different than when a vehicle is surrounded by a hard object such as concrete.
Long story short. Noise doesn't indicate increased wear. Its ones perception that the noise may unbearable enough that the increased wear is a better alternative than increased noise. I personally hear the noise that is spoken of but, I find the older the oil the better the noise, driveability and mpg's. I also have the comfort of very good used oil analysis in motors with so called "noisy oils".
Well isn't it true that all 4-cycle engines SUCK-SQUEEZE-BANG-BLOW?
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