pennzoil add pack falling out

[Vuflanovsky]

OP,

I gather that you don't think Pennzoil's explanation is correct?? Personally,I don't attribute those sediment-like bits to the add pack falling out. In new oil, I would probably attribute it to a by-product of production similar to what Pennzoil is saying with the add pack remaining in suspension and there not being deterioration. I've seen this a couple times in my use of SOPUS oils but I never questioned those bits as somehow being degrading oil. In my case, it was at the bottom of the jug and remained there.

 

[Malo83]

Much Ado about nothing! will keep on using my Pennz, a little residue on the bottom, no foil seals, what's next.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: ndfergy
That was my first thought, too....

Quite likely. That's what's been reasoned before when threads about "stuff" in the bottom of the jugs came out before. Or, if it's Shell's more magical explanation, so be it.

I'm not too worried about it.

 

[MobilinHyundia]

After each oil change take the vehicle for a bumpy ride to mix the oil properly.

 

[ndfergy]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: ndfergy
That was my first thought, too....

Quite likely. That's what's been reasoned before when threads about "stuff" in the bottom of the jugs came out before. Or, if it's Shell's more magical explanation, so be it.

I'm not too worried about it.


You're quite right Garak, who gives a toss. BTW Matthews just scored for my Leafs. Life is good.

 

[ford46guy]

Store em upside down! Then you can be sure to give them a shake!

 

[pacc]

Originally Posted By: ford46guy
Store em upside down! Then you can be sure to give them a shake!


That is not that bad an idea.

 

[delirious]

I laugh at the people in the beginning of this thread who had these stupid assumptions before even checking in with the manufacturer.

Instead of looking like deranged tinfoil hat wearing crazies, you could have easily wondered what Shell's explanation was and hope to get a response back from them.

It's always something with these people: supposed leaky jugs that might occur .1% of the time due to improper handling, no double seal for those that cant check to see if the cap seal has been cracked or those that fear they themselves can't handle the oil from the time they leave the store to the time they get home, and now jumping to the worse conclusions when in reality is non-harmful.

See grasping at straws

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
I laugh at the people in the beginning of this thread who had these stupid assumptions before even checking in with the manufacturer.

Instead of looking like deranged tinfoil hat wearing crazies, you could have easily wondered what Shell's explanation was and hope to get a response back from them.

It's always something with these people: supposed leaky jugs that might occur .1% of the time due to improper handling, no double seal for those that cant check to see if the cap seal has been cracked or those that fear they themselves can't handle the oil from the time they leave the store to the time they get home, and now jumping to the worse conclusions when in reality is non-harmful.

See grasping at straws



Actually, might I possibly suggest that on this occasion, it's your assumptions that are way off the mark?

Additive drop-out from engine oil isn't that common but neither is it that rare either. I remember well having to go to one French customer who had a warehouse full of bottles of engine oil where VII polymer had, over several weeks, come out of solution. I also recall getting sent samples of bottled oil from the Middle-East which if you shook them up, resembled a snow globe (flakes of detergent-related calcium carbonate that over three months, agglomerated and settled out of solution). And as an AddCo, we were far from being the worst offender in the industry!

Maybe you should stick to writing your software and leave the oily stuff to the grown-ups that understand how things work?

 

[4wd]

Well, it's just one of those subjects where after reading about - just started giving jugs a shake - been clearance shopping oils so you know some of these have been around. Worst case my arm gets a work out .:.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
Well, it's just one of those subjects where after reading about - just started giving jugs a shake - been clearance shopping oils so you know some of these have been around. Worst case my arm gets a work out .:.


Would that life was that easy. I'm my experience, additives that drop out rarely want to go back into solution with simple shaking (even hard shaking). VII polymer will go back into solution but only with heating. Calcium carbonate exists in oil as a colloidal suspension. However if comes out of suspension and agglomerates, then it's just like putting chalk into your engine! Moly (which I think is the problem here) is the biggest pain because certain Moly additives are fundamentally insoluble in base oil (even Group I). Yes, if you blend in the Moly at the same time as you blend in the ashless detergent (usually at about 80C) you can get the stuff to go in but after that, there's always that tendency for the natural order to assert itself and it can plop out again.

 

[Vuflanovsky]

I just don't understand the fixation with this substance at the bottom ( which in my experience doesn't shake back into suspension ) as being add pack deterioration. If it stays on the bottom, I would think this is likely a form of production by-product and not failing oil. That would likely be the first question to ask and not how to get it back into suspension because the add pack is deteriorating on new oil {{{eye roll}}}. What happens when some oils are more caramel-colored than others?? Does that mean it's stronger??

 

[ndfergy]

Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
I laugh at the people in the beginning of this thread who had these stupid assumptions before even checking in with the manufacturer.

Instead of looking like deranged tinfoil hat wearing crazies, you could have easily wondered what Shell's explanation was and hope to get a response back from them.

It's always something with these people: supposed leaky jugs that might occur .1% of the time due to improper handling, no double seal for those that cant check to see if the cap seal has been cracked or those that fear they themselves can't handle the oil from the time they leave the store to the time they get home, and now jumping to the worse conclusions when in reality is non-harmful.



See grasping at straws


Lambasting others because your notion of "Putting the cart before the horse" denotes a wackjob is a little heavy handed, don't you think? I'd be a little circumspect of any manufacturers response when questioning an issue. This is a forum that encourages open debate. The concerns are valid - it happened. Not everyone is tilting at windmills or has an ax to grind.

Sonofjoe, with is experience as a formulator, brought up some possible explanations. Not being a formulator, chemical engineer or tribologist myself I'm welcome to others with more knowledge chiming in on the subject.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe

Would that life was that easy. I'm my experience, additives that drop out rarely want to go back into solution with simple shaking (even hard shaking). VII polymer will go back into solution but only with heating. Calcium carbonate exists in oil as a colloidal suspension. However if comes out of suspension and agglomerates, then it's just like putting chalk into your engine! Moly (which I think is the problem here) is the biggest pain because certain Moly additives are fundamentally insoluble in base oil (even Group I). Yes, if you blend in the Moly at the same time as you blend in the ashless detergent (usually at about 80C) you can get the stuff to go in but after that, there's always that tendency for the natural order to assert itself and it can plop out again.


Joe, what you say makes sense, and you would know.

I can see shaking it by hand not getting the various adds back into solution. However if you poured it into your engine. would the mechanical forces and elevated temperatures there get it all back into solution and working well ?

Also if some of the precipitation stuck to the bottom of the jug and couldn't be poured back in, would this amount left behind be typically a small minor amount of the total add ? Or a significant proportion that will be missed ?

BTW I know solubility and temperature are strongly related, have all these add pack drop-outs been in cold climates? I've never noticed it in my hot climate, but maybe I was either lucky or unobservant.

 

[SonofJoe]

SR5,
Yes, if you can get the entire contents of the bottle into the engine, the heat and mechanical shearing of the engine will go a long way to getting things back to the way they should be.
However, looking at that YouTube clip I posted, you would probably need a sharp Stanley knife to cut off the bottom of the bottle and use a small spatula to scrape all of the settled black gloop into the oil filler cap. I'm not saying it's not possible but how many people would actually go to the trouble of doing that? Also if it was a 5 litre metal can, who would get a pair of tin shears to take the bottom of the can off?
TBH, the best way to solve this problem is not to have it in the first place by screening out in the lab componentry and combinations of components that are likely to drop out of solution. Sadly this is usually the bit that gets thought about only after all the bench & engine tests have been run when it's usually too late to do anything about things!

 

[Vuflanovsky]

Joe,

Are you saying that you know what the OP is dealing with specific to SOPUS or are you just applying experience to something it might not be?? I can tell you from my experience with using Pennzoil that I've run into this issue and for some strange reason I'm fairly assured that it's not add pack as I understand it - it's a production by-product similar to what Pennzoil advised it likely was in the email to the OP. It definitely doesn't go back into suspension with shaking by hand...but that's not really a test either. As I've run into this more than once...and if it's the same thing the OP is referring to...I have doubts that the additive pack factors into the equation. Am I off base here or is there something that's not clicking with me?? You can bet that if it's inferred that "it's all over the internet" that the PZ add pack is falling out then my B.S. meter will be firmly in the red and at least some here will have already wandered to a possibly wrong conclusion.

 

[SonofJoe]

Vuflanovsky,

In answer to your question, no, I don't have any SOPUS specific information on this issue. If I did, I probably wouldn't post it on BITOG as that would probably result in a threatening letter from their legal people! I've only posted my personal opinions based on what I saw in the video and my prior experience.

I did read the response the OP received back from Shell which I missed until you pointed it out. Hmmmm, I can't say I'm overly impressed to be honest. It smacks of something some smart-arse in the Marketing Department threw together to pacify the restless natives. 'Nanotechnology...to keep the pH balance correct'...so it's something that dropped out of the detergent then? And it's all very deliberate and natural and it's designed to be like that and it's harmless and not important and it's only the odd molecule that drops out anyway so don't worry, be happy. Yeah, right! Note that they don't say that such a deposit would oil insoluble chalk or magnesite (magnesium carbonate) which is what you get if you use over-based detergents that haven't been properly filtered or one that has gotten wet at some point. Even non-mechanical types like me know putting chalk in your engine isn't a good idea.

Anyway, regardless of what Shell say, I don't think this deposit is a by-product from overbased detergent. Carbonate deposits are white (in their pure state) or more usually a milky coffee colour is they plop out of oil and the stuff in the video is properly black. Detergents tend to be amber to dark brown colour. They are generally not black. ZDDPs are a nice straw colour and ashless dispersants vary from amber to a dark tawny colour. AO's come is all sorts of colours but tend to range from clear to pinky to yellowy-red. The only stuff in engine oil that is properly black is Moly. QED (in my opinion)...the deposit is likely to be Moly...

 

[4wd]

I have a plenty complicated job and life. Not adding this one to it ...

 

[NHRATA]

Plenty of other good oils out there, Castrol, Valvoline, mobil, I'll stick with those.

 

[crazyoildude]

I agree with you, there are a lot of other good oils out there you can use.. There is nothing so special about any of the oils mentioned here that sticks out as the best if there was a best oil they would advertise it as the best...They are all pretty much the same it's all really in the ratings not at all in the advertising.
I always look inside the jugs after i use them anyway..