P-38 Lightning: The Best Plane From World War II?

[Number_35]

As to the best WWII fighter, wasn't it the top general of the German air-force who when he saw that the P51 aircrafts were able to stay with our bombers for the entire flight because of improvements, including drop tanks to extend the range, said something about the war was lost.

I recommend Len Deighton's fine novel "Goodbye Mickey Mouse", about a P-51 squadron flying bomber escort in the later stages of WWII.

In the book, the pilots lament over having to fly P-51 Mustangs instead of the more durable P-47 Thunderbolts. Someone reminds them that "Uncle Sam pays $100K for a Thunderbolt, and only $50K for a Mustang".

I can't say this is entirely accurate, but tend to believe it as Deighton is generally an excellent researcher.

Agreed that the appearance of the drop tank in late 1943 allowed the American fighters to accompany the daylight bombers all the way to the target and back, changing the air war in Europe dramatically.

In actuality, the outcome of the war in Europe was pretty much determined by the end of 1941; the proposed invasion of England had been postponed indefinitely the year before, Hitler had unwisely invaded the Soviet Union and the Wehrmacht was now bogging down in the cold winter, the tide was beginning to turn in North Africa and in the North Atlantic, and the US had just entered the war. But I can see how the increased daylight bombing would have brought that home to the German people.

 

[MRC01]

...
In actuality, the outcome of the war in Europe was pretty much determined by the end of 1941; the proposed invasion of England had been postponed indefinitely the year before, Hitler had unwisely invaded the Soviet Union and the Wehrmacht was now bogging down in the cold winter, the tide was beginning to turn in North Africa and in the North Atlantic, and the US had just entered the war. But I can see how the increased daylight bombing would have brought that home to the German people.

According to Churchill's 6-volume work on WW-II, things looked dark through 1942 even after the US joined the war, with the allies suffering defeats worldwide through Europe, Africa and the Pacific. Late '42 to early '43 was when events started to turn in favor of the allies, hence the name of that volume, "The Hinge of Fate". The allied victory outcome was pretty much determined by '44, but it took another year for it to happen.

 

[Number_35]

According to Churchill's 6-volume work on WW-II, things looked dark through 1942 even after the US joined the war, with the allies suffering defeats worldwide through Europe, Africa and the Pacific. Late '42 to early '43 was when events started to turn in favor of the allies, hence the name of that volume, "The Hinge of Fate". The allied victory outcome was pretty much determined by '44, but it took another year for it to happen.

Well, I won't argue with Mr Churchill!

In his excellent History of the Luftwaffe 1914 - 1945, author John Killen puts forth the theory that the outcome of the war had been determined by the end of 1941.

But I'm sure that to the Brits, still being bombed regularly, still in awe of The Desert Fox, still without a beachhead in continental Europe, having been routed in the Pacific, and with their night bombing offensive yet to get into high gear, things still looked pretty bleak in 1942.

 

[Wolf359]

Well, I won't argue with Mr Churchill!

In his excellent History of the Luftwaffe 1914 - 1945, author John Killen puts forth the theory that the outcome of the war had been determined by the end of 1941.

But I'm sure that to the Brits, still being bombed regularly, still in awe of The Desert Fox, still without a beachhead in continental Europe, having been routed in the Pacific, and with their night bombing offensive yet to get into high gear, things still looked pretty bleak in 1942.

In retrospect you could tell it was over by 1941 as it appeared Hitler was over extended. But he made some bad decision and if a few things had changed, it could have been extended several more years and possibility turned out a little different. Stalingrad was a mistake and the failure to capture the oil fields hadn't happened yet, that could have happened.

Look at the Civil War, on paper, it shouldn't have lasted that long, the North had a bigger army and more resources. But the South won several battles early and that really extended the war.

 

[bcossa2020]

I don’t know very much about airplanes but it’s hard to believe a P51 was a better faster plane than the P38. Just looking at them it would seem to be no contest.....

 

[wemay]

Opinions vary but yes, in some circles the P-38 is considered the best. There are quite a few WWII aircraft that can arguably be considered such, depending on the qualifiers used.

 

[spasm3]

Not sure ,like oil that there is a best. It took all the aircraft in their different roles to succeed. The p 38, p47, p51, f4u, countless others in their own roles to triumph overall.

 

[MRC01]

... author John Killen puts forth the theory that the outcome of the war had been determined by the end of 1941.
But I'm sure that to the Brits, still being bombed regularly, still in awe of The Desert Fox, still without a beachhead in continental Europe, having been routed in the Pacific, and with their night bombing offensive yet to get into high gear, things still looked pretty bleak in 1942.

In retrospect you could tell it was over by 1941 as it appeared Hitler was over extended. ...

Yes, and you both make a key point - our 20/20 hindsight is an entirely different perspective from how events seemed at the time through the fog of war. Some events we look back on as "inevitable" had not yet happened and might have turned out differently.

 

[Owen Lucas]

My 8th grade science teacher was one the 16 that intercepted Yamamoto’s Betty. Great guy and teacher. Wish I would have taken the time to get to know him better.

I run into a lot of proud veterans who display their WWII hats. I always stop and say thank you and chat a bit if possible. Ran into a guy a few months before covid. Thunderbolt* pilot in Italy, was even in some WWII footage used in movies. He was bagging groceries with his wife at the checkout. Must have been in his 90's for sure but very well alive and smiling. What a generation!

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Technically speaking the 1942 P51 Mustang (437mph) was superior over the 1941 P38 (414mph)... whereas the 1944 Me262 (530mph) was superior over the P51 Mustang... so in my best learned opinion the best plane of WW2 was the brilliant and deadly Me262... it could pick and choose the fight... no P51 pilot wanted to dog fight an opponent that is 100mph faster armed with 4 30mm cannons...

 

[chainblu]

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[IndyFan]

Technically speaking the 1942 P51 Mustang (437mph) was superior over the 1941 P38 (414mph)... whereas the 1944 Me262 (530mph) was superior over the P51 Mustang... so in my best learned opinion the best plane of WW2 was the brilliant and deadly Me262... it could pick and choose the fight... no P51 pilot wanted to dog fight an opponent that is 100mph faster armed with 4 30mm cannons...


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But did it win a championship? No. The P-51 won the championship. Athletic ability doesn't mean as much when you've won nothing.

 

[y_p_w]

Technically speaking the 1942 P51 Mustang (437mph) was superior over the 1941 P38 (414mph)... whereas the 1944 Me262 (530mph) was superior over the P51 Mustang... so in my best learned opinion the best plane of WW2 was the brilliant and deadly Me262... it could pick and choose the fight... no P51 pilot wanted to dog fight an opponent that is 100mph faster armed with 4 30mm cannons...


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It had speed but I heard that didn't make it a terribly good in an era where guns in a turning fight were the only effective weapon against other aircraft.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

It had speed but I heard that didn't make it a terribly good in an era where guns in a turning fight were the only effective weapon against other aircraft.

If you have 100mph speed advantage your preferred method of attack is Boom & Zoom not Turn & Burn... the mission goal for the 262 was to butcher our Bomber formations which it could accomplish without wasting time tackling our fighter escorts... Over the course of the war, Me 262s are believed to have shot down 542 Allied aircraft while losing only 100 jets. One German pilot later said that fighting in an Me 262 "was like being a god in a way."

Sure way to kill a 262 was on landing approach... out of gas, out of ammo and out of luck as Yeager learned to do...

 

[y_p_w]

If you have 100mph speed advantage your preferred method of attack is Boom & Zoom not Turn & Burn... the mission goal for the 262 was to butcher our Bomber formations which it could accomplish without wasting time tackling our fighter escorts... Over the course of the war, Me 262s are believed to have shot down 542 Allied aircraft while losing only 100 jets. One German pilot later said that fighting in an Me 262 "was like being a god in a way."

Sure way to kill a 262 was on landing approach... out of gas, out of ammo and out of luck as Yeager learned to do...

I thought that it had some serious limitations. One as you noted was landing speeds where Yeager wasn't the only pilot to follow one to a base and shoot at it while it was landing. Then there was short range. And of course that jet engines at the time were extremely temperamental and vulnerable to stalls. But still - wasn't its primary mission to go after slower and less maneuverable bombers? Of course typically outfitted with gunners where bullets are still faster than a jet?

But of course that was an era where everything had to be lined up, including bombs, guns, and even rockets. It's certainly not like today with laser guided munitions and guided missiles. How many P-51s and Spitfires did they defeat? I heard it wasn't that many.

I know turning fights are way overrated these days with missiles that are typically fired from at least 2 miles away. But back then everything was short range. I wouldn't be so silly as the claim I remember here that an A-10's maneuverability would somehow make up for a lack of speed, but everything I heard about the Me 262 was that its maneuverability was really poor.

 

[bbhero]

The Germans were liquifying coal. It wasn’t a terribly efficient process because of the sheer amount of energy to make it, but it made reasonably high quality liquid fuels. But total carbon output was hardly a concern for them during a war (or the 1940s).

ypw.... They went into Russia for oil and gas reserves.... And that's why they were in North Africa too..... Oil and gas....

Their supplies ran out during the Battle of the Bulge. They ran out of fuel ....

Their process didn't help them hardly at all.

 

[Jetronic]

I thought that it had some serious limitations. One as you noted was landing speeds where Yeager wasn't the only pilot to follow one to a base and shoot at it while it was landing. Then there was short range. And of course that jet engines at the time were extremely temperamental and vulnerable to stalls. But still - wasn't its primary mission to go after slower and less maneuverable bombers? Of course typically outfitted with gunners where bullets are still faster than a jet?

But of course that was an era where everything had to be lined up, including bombs, guns, and even rockets. It's certainly not like today with laser guided munitions and guided missiles. How many P-51s and Spitfires did they defeat? I heard it wasn't that many.

I know turning fights are way overrated these days with missiles that are typically fired from at least 2 miles away. But back then everything was short range. I wouldn't be so silly as the claim I remember here that an A-10's maneuverability would somehow make up for a lack of speed, but everything I heard about the Me 262 was that its maneuverability was really poor.

If an Me262 shot down a P-51 or other fighter, that was actually an allied victory. It's primary and secondary misson is to stop the bombers. Any fuel or munitions or engine hours spent on a P-51 couldn't be spent on the bombers.

 

[IndyFan]

It wasn't just Yeager and a few others. The overall tactic against the 262 was to keep as constant a presence of fighters swarming over their airfields to hit them on take-off and landing. It worked pretty well. That kill ratio would have been much higher, otherwise.

But even if the Germans had used the 262 as intended, Yeager said we'd have rushed and blackened their skies with P-80's in a pretty short time if it became too big a problem for us.

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

If an Me262 shot down a P-51 or other fighter, that was actually an allied victory. It's primary and secondary misson is to stop the bombers. Any fuel or munitions or engine hours spent on a P-51 couldn't be spent on the bombers.

I think that might have been the official position, but historians after the war might have seen it differently.
Looking at the strategic bombing campaign against Germany you have to question the effectiveness of it versus the cost. There were more aircrew lost by 8th AF in Europe than the entire number of Marines against Japan. But when we'd lose a plane and crew, we could replace it with two more. Experienced crew, inexperienced crew, didn't matter. They were expendable. And the highly touted "precision bombing" was a joke. All bombs hit the ground, few hit even remotely close to their target.
One thing the campaign did is force the Germans to defend against the bombers with fighters. There were disproportionate bomber losses until they were escorted by Allied long range fighters. Once Allied fighters started engaging German fighters, the Germans started losing pilots they couldn't replace. The balance shifted between fighter pilot experience, and it wasn't too long before the Germans were grounded to prevent the loss of the few decent pilots left.
And that's how you establish air superiority. Once fighters can roam your countryside with impunity, blowing up everything that moves, you're done.
Japan was a little different. The strategic bombing highlighted by the firebombing campaign by Lemay was very effective.

 

[Knerml12]

De Havilland Mosquito
400mph. This aircraft was so versatile that it would eventually be deployed as light bombers, fighter-bombers, night fighters, pathfinders, reconnaissance platforms, and even used in anti-submarine roles.