Torsen is a torque biasing unit that is almost transparent to most people. I sugest you look into it!! They are expensive and need premium synthetic gear lube with lots of additives but they rule for daily driveing and have almost taken over F1!
Open vs. LSD for an on-road non racecar
- Thread starter JHZR2
- Start date
- Status
Are you sure John ?
To the best of my knowledge, although that is a few years old now, they haven't been able to make one that could stand up to the HP/torque.
Too many small fiddly worm gears and a lot of heat is generated. They tended to explode.
I think they mostly use electro/mechanical/hydraulic manually adjustable bias types in F1.
About 5-10 years ago, Viscous centres were all the rage, until the hydraulically adjustable types came on the scene. The driver could change the bias ratio on the move from virtually fully open to fully locked.
Quaiffe in the UK make an excellent worm drive torque biasing diff, similar to the Torsen, which I think is based on the original Gleason design. It's used in motorsport, although I think only up to F3, but they may be able to use it in higher power cars now.
Not done much research on it, but;
Torsens don't like major shock loads like clutch dumps. The can handle quite a bit of power though. I'm sure F1 versions are a bit beefier than production car ones...
http://www.theoldone.com/components/quaife/
Torsens don't like major shock loads like clutch dumps. The can handle quite a bit of power though. I'm sure F1 versions are a bit beefier than production car ones...
The AA axles with a limited slip in the Dodge 2500 and 3500 truck use a Torsen type, similar to the HumVee but with a lower bias. Some users complain about having to use a brake to engage it soemtimes, and some seem to think that a a limited slip will enable their truck with all season highway tires to handle any mud, ice, snow, etc. :^)
As with any manufactured item there can be failures, but so far the AA seems to be pretty reliable, even with the hard use and abuse that it will see with a diesel pickup, most with 4x4 and sticks. I don't know what the repair rate on HumVees (military vehicle), but one can safely assume that they're used hard too.
As with any manufactured item there can be failures, but so far the AA seems to be pretty reliable, even with the hard use and abuse that it will see with a diesel pickup, most with 4x4 and sticks. I don't know what the repair rate on HumVees (military vehicle), but one can safely assume that they're used hard too.
Ditto.
just the opposite. the torsen doesn't need anything special, not additive nor synthetic. The gear lube requirement is dictated by the ring/pinion gear in the differential. Zexel/torsen has a decent website with detailed info on the T2 type a, b, and T2R. I don't think the T2's are expensive, relatively speaking. The T2R's are expensive, over $500 I think for just the unit.
Put a full spool in the beamer and be done with it: least weight, most efficient, most HP.
quote:
Originally posted by 1 FMF:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
Put a full spool in the beamer and be done with it: least weight, most efficient, most HP.Now THAT would be fun in the snow. NOT!
I had a '65 ElCamino in Alaska for four winters back in the seventies. It had limited slip differential. I bought a pair of Sears radial snow tires the second winter after tiring of the chains drill. Never got stuck. It went real well in the snow. I wouldn't consider a non LS diff in any kind of snow country.
My $0.02
My $0.02
1FMF, Experince on this site has shown that cheap low additive fluids do not hold up well in Torsen setup's! They shear badly out of grade. By lots of additives I was refering to it being at least a GL5 fluid and one that is up to snuff unlike the rescent post by Molakule on a tested batch of Walmart Tech2000 140Wt gear lube. We also have a test of Coastal gear lube that did not hold up in a Torsen because it's viscosity improvers (also additives) sheared badly. You make it sound like I recomended that he add additives to it or something. Company's like Redline and Sepcialty Formulations do not skimp on the additives and their fluids hold up. Synthetic tends to hold up better then does dino to heat and shearing. Remember additives is a broad term and are not limited to the organo-metalic additives esters of all types are also in this catagory depending on their use! I think we also have someone on the site with a Torsen useing RP MaxGear with good results!
The information about the Torsen and F1 came from their site about 2-4 years ago. They used to show one on their site being installed by a F1 team!
Vader SS, I never recomended a spool in this thread why are you giveing me credit for that? A spool would be horable in a daily driver!! You have me mixed up with 1FMF!!!
The information about the Torsen and F1 came from their site about 2-4 years ago. They used to show one on their site being installed by a F1 team!
Vader SS, I never recomended a spool in this thread why are you giveing me credit for that? A spool would be horable in a daily driver!! You have me mixed up with 1FMF!!!
A spool locks the axles permanantly;
This;
Instead of this;
Torsen T2 8.5" GM
[ May 25, 2005, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: VaderSS ]
This;
Instead of this;
Torsen T2 8.5" GM
[ May 25, 2005, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: VaderSS ]
quote:
Originally posted by 1 FMF:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
[qb] Put a full spool in the beamer and be done with it: least weight, most efficient, most HP.I'm a little lost...What is a "full spool"?
I've always preferred an LSD, but wound up with cars that had open rears.
In defense of them (open), they do tend to last longer (front engine/rear drive), especially the bulletproof MOPAR 8-3/4" and other "old" design pieces from Detroit.
As a tidbit, I spent some time a few years back working on a '63 Chrysler 300 (Letter Car); 413 with the long-ram dual quads. This car was purchased used by the owner in about 1965 or so, and he had quite a few thirty-five year plus relationships with other 300 owners (and a few famous MOPAR engineers). His had an open rear and was good for several miles an hour faster top end than the LSD rear cars by report from other owners whom I needed to quiz about some running characteristics to get the beast back to shape.
In defense of them (open), they do tend to last longer (front engine/rear drive), especially the bulletproof MOPAR 8-3/4" and other "old" design pieces from Detroit.
As a tidbit, I spent some time a few years back working on a '63 Chrysler 300 (Letter Car); 413 with the long-ram dual quads. This car was purchased used by the owner in about 1965 or so, and he had quite a few thirty-five year plus relationships with other 300 owners (and a few famous MOPAR engineers). His had an open rear and was good for several miles an hour faster top end than the LSD rear cars by report from other owners whom I needed to quiz about some running characteristics to get the beast back to shape.
If you have to ask, don't bother
Myself I would hate having RWD without LSD. BMW sucks for removing them from all their cars, except them M's.
Myself I would hate having RWD without LSD. BMW sucks for removing them from all their cars, except them M's.
A wife's friend in Germany has commented that it's kind of an old joke that during the winter it's usually the BMWs and Mercedes that are in the ditches in the winter. They're typically rear wheel drive and I guess often have limited slips. During a recent ice storm, where part of the news entertainment is watching vehicles trying navigate on the raods, a BMW was caught doing nice 360s on I5. A friend had a newer BMW with traction control, and he commented that without it the car was worthless on ice, and with it he still had trouble getting around.
Otherwise BMWs are awfully nice cars.
Otherwise BMWs are awfully nice cars.
I've never seen a vehicle that was worthless in light snow, if it had good snow tires on it...
Last time I went into a ditch in snow was in a 4wd, that had "all-seasons." Thankfully, it was 4wd, and I just put it in reverse and backed out.
I tried it in 2wd, and it was worthless. It would have been sweet with snows on.
Last time I went into a ditch in snow was in a 4wd, that had "all-seasons." Thankfully, it was 4wd, and I just put it in reverse and backed out.
I tried it in 2wd, and it was worthless. It would have been sweet with snows on.
Worthless if you don't know how to drive...
Not only that but I consider a BMW to be better than most any other car at the limit and more controlable, in winter conditions, if you know what you are doing. That is because the CG, polar moment of inertia, suspension geometry and roll centers, etc are just about as perfect as you can get on a passenger vehicle.
[ May 27, 2005, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]
Not only that but I consider a BMW to be better than most any other car at the limit and more controlable, in winter conditions, if you know what you are doing. That is because the CG, polar moment of inertia, suspension geometry and roll centers, etc are just about as perfect as you can get on a passenger vehicle.
[ May 27, 2005, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]
4WD gets you going, but 4wd with marginal tires for the conditions will still put you in the ditch, and 4wd with limited slip will put you in the ditch more often as the rear end will still tend to break loose more often, at least on uniformly slick surfaces. Front wheel drive with good tires is better than RWD with good tires on bad road conditions, but both are better than AWD or 4WD with indequate tires. I recall articles in the LA Times about CHP being glad to get back in FWD vehicles after driving the Mustangs, as they were safer in bad conditions. I could go anywhere on ice in our old Honda Civic with studded tires, where I'd often see SUVs and 4WD trucks with poor tires losing it or already off the road.
Snow tires are what it's all about. 4WD with summer tires is all but worthless in the snow. 2WD with snow tires will get you going.
Thinking about the issue another way... since limited slips work well on mixed traction surfaces, where the tires generally have enough traction and the limited slip works to get one thru temporary conditions of poor traction, one can minimize the problem of breaking the rear end loose on uniformly poor traction surfaces merely by making sure that the tires are generally adequate for the conditions. Simple, but hard to do on some surfaces, or with some vehicles due to weight and/or power.
- Status
