Olefin Copolymers

[FrankN4]

I hope I am in the correct forum.

If you had a VOA done by a lab with the equipment to show such, what do olefin copolymers show you? If brand A has X amount of olefin copolymers and brand B has .64X olefin copolymeres, does that possibly mean that brand B has fewer VII?

 

[Tom NJ]

If you are talking about olefin copolymer VI improvers, they are ashless, high molecular weight compounds and will not show up on a VOA, or Gas Chromatography for that matter. They need top be solvent extracted to quantify them. They can also be a part of other additives. Just knowing the percent of olefin copolymer without knowing the type, molecular weight, or what else they may have been part of is not useful information.

Tom NJ

 

[FrankN4]

Thanks Tom

I do not know enough about chemistry to know what questions to ask. I do not think my chemical engineer friend understands what I am trying to do.

I had a suspicion, but just a suspicion as I don't know, that there were different olefin copolymers. I was able to get the information that brand A had much more than brand B. I don't know if they are the same type or not, but he left me with the impression they were not.

He spoke of an "extraction compatative analysis" but I know more about peanut butter.

He spoke of poly alpha olefin, which I assume is base stock. Brand A had less than 8 percent and brand B was better than 74 percent. Dare I assume brand A is GP III and brand B is GP IV? Brand B does give customers the impression that it is GP IV.

 

[Tom NJ]

Polyalphaolefins (PAO) with a viscosity of 4-10 cSt are base oils, but high viscosity PAO (100+ cSt) are considered additives.

PAO base oil content in synthetic motor oils can range from 0 - 80+%. The only method I am aware of that can determine PAO content accurately is gas chromatography, which is a sophisticated test and not part or VOAs. If a motor oil claims to be full synthetic and the PAO (Grp IV) content is known to be low, that it is a pretty safe bet the Grp III content is high.

Tom NJ

 

[FrankN4]

Thanks again Tom

I don't know enough, yet, to ask the correct questions. I never even thought about PAO additives with high cSt.

If I may ask a question based upon my lack of education on the subject. Would not a motor oil with a high quality GP III base, a healthy(whatever that means) dose of a high cSt PAO as an additive, have the potential(if the add pack were tops) to be an extremely high quality oil?

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: FrankN4
If I may ask a question based upon my lack of education on the subject. Would not a motor oil with a high quality GP III base, a healthy(whatever that means) dose of a high cSt PAO as an additive, have the potential(if the add pack were tops) to be an extremely high quality oil?


Sure. Group IIIs vary in quality, but the best of them rival PAOs in most respects except low temperature flow. The low temperature properties can be improved by adding some low viscosity PAO or ester.

High viscosity PAOs are generally used in small doses (single digit %) as a shear stable thickener and are claimed to have some anti-wear benefit as well. A robust DI package (additives) is most important overall for a high quality oil, and synthetic base oils become important for extended drains or hot operations.

While my driving really doesn't require it, I use M1 EP because I like their combination of Grp III+, PAO, AN, POE, and high visc PAO with a robust long drain additive system. I run 10-12k OCIs.

Tom NJ

 

[FrankN4]

I also use Mobil 1 but shorter OCI.

So, if I looked inside of an oil that claimed to be GP III, found petroleum distillates, Poly Alpha Olefins, olefin copolymers, "organic fats," and metals, along with much more, I would need to know the percent and type before I could make any conclusions?

 

[Tom NJ]

Group IIIs are petroleum distillates, and there are many other types and grades of petroleum distillates, including additive diluent oil. Olefin copolymers are a broad class of chemistry, mostly VI Improvers, but other unlisted VI Improvers may be present as well. If the organic fats are combined with organic alcohols they are called "esters" - uncombined they could be anti-corrosion or friction modifier additives. Metals are contained in the anti-wear and detergent additives.

Unless you are an oil formulator and know all of the base oils, additives, types, and dosages, I wouldn't draw any performance conclusions. Best to rely on specifications met by the finished oil.

Tom NJ

 

[FrankN4]

Thanks again Tom.

I am not an oil formulator. I just got the opportunity to look inside of two oils and wondered what I was seeing. I understand now that just because something is there, unless you know HOW it is there and for what purpose, you can get a lot of wrong ideas. I never considered PAO as bot base in one cSt range and additive in another cSt range. I thought organic fats would be FM but never considered them to be part of an ester, or anti corrosion. I was pretty much on base with the metals. I think I will be content of knowing what percentage of what GP# the base oil happens to be. But even there, there are different qualities of any base GP#.

Thanks again.

 

[Tempest]

Just wanted to drop a thanks to Tom for some great info here.

 

[Tom NJ]

 

[INDYMAC]

I agree. Thanks Tom NJ. It is refreshing to see a post every now and then from someone who is qualified to discuss a topic. We appreciate it!

 

[Tom NJ]