Oil viscosity Blackstone Labs results??

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I've been searching and finally gave up, have to ask..

I was reviewing my Blackstone labs report and noticed something odd, they say the range of a 5w-30 viscosity cST is 8.2-11.3 but looking at SAE's J300 range for 5w-30 (the 30 weight at 100C) it's 9.3-12.5 cST. Why the difference??

lab report here : https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4281100/Re:_06_Scion_tc,_TGMO_5w30_oil#Post4279319
 
I'm running M1 HM 5w30 on my 1mzfe, and it is 12.1 cst @ 100C. HM oils are on the thick side. Blackstone may be referring to a typical range of cst AFTER running the oil for a full OCI. One would expect that to be lower due to shearing, etc.
 
I am surprised that 5w30 TGMO is at 8.9 cst after only 3k miles on that 2.4l toyota engine. That seems pretty low.
 
Originally Posted By: WillsYoda
I'm running M1 HM 5w30 on my 1mzfe, and it is 12.1 cst @ 100C. HM oils are on the thick side. Blackstone may be referring to a typical range of cst AFTER running the oil for a full OCI. One would expect that to be lower due to shearing, etc.


...or higher due to lighter elements being cooked off when the oil is hot.
 
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Originally Posted By: WillsYoda
I'm running M1 HM 5w30 on my 1mzfe, and it is 12.1 cst @ 100C. HM oils are on the thick side. Blackstone may be referring to a typical range of cst AFTER running the oil for a full OCI. One would expect that to be lower due to shearing, etc.


...or higher due to lighter elements being cooked off when the oil is hot.



I've never seen a UOA in which, after thousands of miles, the oil's cst is higher than the virgin oil spec. That isn't to say it never happens. But I've only seen lower cst. Usually much lower.
 
Oil can also undergo oxidative thickening and end up thicker than it started. Layman's terms have you ever seen thin sludge?
 
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SAE J 300 puts grade 30 oil with a cSt @ 100C from 9.3 - http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/ ) No variations exist for used oil, diluted oil, oxidated oil, etc. Could be what visc they typically see in their UOA samples. Kind of confusing though. I hope Blackstone would tell you where their 8.2 - 11.3 comes from. I would certainly ask (and take it with a grain of salt). Your oil certainly fell out of SAE spec. I would compare the used visc with the typical virgin visc. If there is less that a 25% change from typical virgin, no big problem.
 
Originally Posted By: doyall
SAE J 300 puts grade 30 oil with a cSt @ 100C from 9.3 - http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/ ) No variations exist for used oil, diluted oil, oxidated oil, etc. Could be what visc they typically see in their UOA samples. Kind of confusing though. I hope Blackstone would tell you where their 8.2 - 11.3 comes from. I would certainly ask (and take it with a grain of salt). Your oil certainly fell out of SAE spec. I would compare the used visc with the typical virgin visc. If there is less that a 25% change from typical virgin, no big problem.


thanks doyall.. that's what I was thinking that it WAS out of SAE spec, not what Blackstone said it should be. I will be contacting Blackstone after this weekend to find out where they get this range.

And you're exactly right because I was looking at my test from december and thought "this sure looks like a 5w-20 not a 5w-30!" When PQIA did a VOA on this Toyota 5w30, they had a 10.3 cST @100C. And that does fall within 25% of the original number, what I have.

I didn't think the 2AZ-FE engine (in my scion tc, camry, etc) was that rough on oil, or is this a normal thinning out. I am not seeing any odd engine wear and I'm of the thinking "if it aint broke, dont fix it".. But I keep thinking of the thicker castrol magnatec oil, which is at 11.1cST @100c.. just got me thinking..
 
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Originally Posted By: WillsYoda
I am surprised that 5w30 TGMO is at 8.9 cst after only 3k miles on that 2.4l toyota engine. That seems pretty low.


hey willsyoda! Yeah that's what got me thinking since it seems low for only 3k miles. Is the 2az-fe rough on oil? I didn't think it was, but hey I can always learn something new.

and as I was telling doyall in the above message, the wear numbers are very low, so it's odd it's thinned out but no wear? I'm wondering if I would do any harm going to the thicker castrol magnatec oil which is 11.1cst at 100C. Or is this a case of leave it alone?
 
Originally Posted By: WillsYoda
2az-fe engines aren't known for being hard on oil. The thicker castrol magnatec oil, or any thicker 5w30, would work. M1 HM 5w30 is 12.1 cst, which is pretty thick. Maxlife blend 5w30 is only 10.7... http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/maxlife.pdf


thanks for the reply, and confirming what I remembered about the 2az-fe engine wasn't tough on oil. I may consider the magnetec since my friend put it in his 1.5T Honda hatch (fuel diluter) and so far he's enjoying it.

I did get a reply from Blackstone today. What they said was the range I was given was for a VOA of the Toyota Branded 5w-30 oil. That the Toyota oil is usually on the thinner side of the 5w-30 spec. And sometimes will thin out over time and cross over to the thicker side of a 5w20 range. They agreed that my viscosity number did cross over into the 5w20 range for an SAE standard, but that Toyota doesn't usually adhere strickly to that.

For me, I'll listen to SAE on their standards and yes it crossed over to a thicker 5w20. However the 2az-fe is approved for 5w20 oil. Blackstone also said that this oil was giving zero readings for some of the wear items. That's true, it is working well, if it wasn't, wear would be much, much higher.

I'm kind of torn here, if it's not broke, why fix it. But I am really liking the magnatec results! Guess I'm becoming a true BITOG member! Can't stop trying to make it better! lol.. But then again I'm already at zero wear, how much better can I get?
 
Originally Posted By: researcher
I've been searching and finally gave up, have to ask..

I was reviewing my Blackstone labs report and noticed something odd, they say the range of a 5w-30 viscosity cST is 8.2-11.3 but looking at SAE's J300 range for 5w-30 (the 30 weight at 100C) it's 9.3-12.5 cST. Why the difference??

lab report here : https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4281100/Re:_06_Scion_tc,_TGMO_5w30_oil#Post4279319

I've been asking that exact same question whenever I see Blackstone reports. I guess they give some leeway for whatever their own reasons are, but in reality, the viscosity should not drop out of grade and still be within "acceptable limits"; at least not in my opinion.
 
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: researcher
I've been searching and finally gave up, have to ask..

I was reviewing my Blackstone labs report and noticed something odd, they say the range of a 5w-30 viscosity cST is 8.2-11.3 but looking at SAE's J300 range for 5w-30 (the 30 weight at 100C) it's 9.3-12.5 cST. Why the difference??

lab report here : https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4281100/Re:_06_Scion_tc,_TGMO_5w30_oil#Post4279319

I've been asking that exact same question whenever I see Blackstone reports. I guess they give some leeway for whatever their own reasons are, but in reality, the viscosity should not drop out of grade and still be within "acceptable limits"; at least not in my opinion.


If you look at my last post, Blackstone was explaining that the ranges they give are from their own database of VOA's for the oil that is being tested. If the oil was M1 5w30 they would show that range of what they've seen. Or in my case Toyota 5w30. I do agree with sticking with SAE's range.
 
It's nice to know if your oil loses the same viscosity in other applications though. if not, it's likely an egine issue but if it does you should consider another oil.
 
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Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
... the viscosity should not drop out of grade and still be within "acceptable limits"; at least not in my opinion.


So if the oil started with a cSt @ 100C of 9.7 (30 grade) and ended up with a cSt @ 100C of 9.0 (20 grade), that is not acceptable?
 
Originally Posted By: doyall
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
... the viscosity should not drop out of grade and still be within "acceptable limits"; at least not in my opinion.


So if the oil started with a cSt @ 100C of 9.7 (30 grade) and ended up with a cSt @ 100C of 9.0 (20 grade), that is not acceptable?

Correct
thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: doyall
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist

Correct
thumbsup2.gif



Man, you are a stickler!

I prefer "high standards", but the sentiment is the same.

If a formulator designs the product with a fresh viscosity that close to the lower limit, using extremely shear stable polymers is a must for a decent product. If you know the product will shear, the starting viscosity should reflect that expected loss.
 
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
...
If a formulator designs the product with a fresh viscosity that close to the lower limit, using extremely shear stable polymers is a must for a decent product. If you know the product will shear, the starting viscosity should reflect that expected loss.


No wiggle room for oil used in an irremediable fuel diluting engine?
 
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