Oil specs: Toughest to Easiest to pass (list)

[blackman777]

I cribbed this information directly from the following link. http://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/ACEA/RelativePerformanceTool/default.html The point of the post is to show API and ILSAC certifications are Not a tough specification for oil to pass. They are ridiculously easy compared to other, tougher manufacturer specs. VW 507.00 MB 229.51 Dexos 2 BMW Longlife04 Ford M2C948 Dexos 1 ACEA2010 A5/B5 Renault 0700 Porsche A40 ILSAC GF5 API SN

 

[JHZR2]

So the low SAPS oil specs that hold no relevance to US market engines, because they cant hold TBN, are the toughest? What criteria did you use to make this determination?

 

[blackman777]

Answer was provided in the very first sentence. As for relevance, that is up to each user to decide. I find the Dexos and VW specs very relevant for me (because they are required by the U.S. manual).

 

[bepperb]

There are some areas, such as fuel economy, where ILSAC GF5 is more difficult than Dexos 1. So it seems your list is somewhat arbitrary. Plus it's only your opinion that some are "ridiculously easy" and the relative differences between them. So until you list your exact criteria (which should vary from application to application) your list seems pointless.

 

[dparm]

Not sure I agree with the placement of Porsche A40, especially with regards to VW 507. Also, where is BMW LL-01? And VW 502?

 

[Ayrton]

What about Mercedes 229.5? You listed the diesel spec low saps version, 229.51. I do think you had a neat idea.

 

[blackman777]

229.50 ranks lower than 229.51. VW502.00 is middling in comparison to the VW507.00. ILSAC is better than Dexos1 in fuel economy? No not really, and it is vastly inferior to Dexos1 in wear protection. I tried to list the *best* spec for each manufacturer. If you guys want more detail than that, just click on the link (it's a graph of all specs) because it answers all your questions. I threw this post together in literally 5 minutes, but it doesn't change the key point: API and ILSAC rank at the bottom. Oils that carry these specs (and nothing else) should be considered barely acceptable. The oils are the equivalent of D students (passed but only just barely).

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: blackman777

API and ILSAC rank at the bottom. Oils that carry these specs (and nothing else) should be considered barely acceptable. The oils are the equivalent of D students (passed but only just barely).

I think what folks are pointing out is that API SN is not simply barely acceptable for those engines requiring nothing more. If the oil does the job for which it is intended, and the engine lasts 400,000 miles, how is that barely acceptable? I think your analogy of an SN oil being a D student compared with BMW LL-04 being an A student perhaps is relevant, as long as you also define the tasks they are required to do. Both A and D students are capable of adding 1+1; neither gives you an advantage one way or the other here. Both SN and BMW LL-04 oils are capable of giving a GM Ecotec engine a 400,000 mile lifespan with 5,000 mile OCIs; neither gives you an advantage one way or the other here. Now, if the task at hand is engineering an automobile, then you NEED the A student instead of the D student. Likewise, if the task at hand is lubricating a BMW V-10 engine in an M5, then you NEED the A oil instead of the D oil. Like viscosity, oil quality grades/standards must be taken in context. BMW LL-04 oil offers no advanage over API SN oil if you're changing it every 5,000 miles in a 4-banger, and API SN is not considered just "barely acceptable" here.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Well put, Hokiefyd. +1

 

[NateDN10]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd

Originally Posted By: blackman777

API and ILSAC rank at the bottom. Oils that carry these specs (and nothing else) should be considered barely acceptable. The oils are the equivalent of D students (passed but only just barely).

I think what folks are pointing out is that API SN is not simply barely acceptable for those engines requiring nothing more. If the oil does the job for which it is intended, and the engine lasts 400,000 miles, how is that barely acceptable? I think your analogy of an SN oil being a D student compared with BMW LL-04 being an A student perhaps is relevant, as long as you also define the tasks they are required to do. Both A and D students are capable of adding 1+1; neither gives you an advantage one way or the other here. Both SN and BMW LL-04 oils are capable of giving a GM Ecotec engine a 400,000 mile lifespan with 5,000 mile OCIs; neither gives you an advantage one way or the other here. Now, if the task at hand is engineering an automobile, then you NEED the A student instead of the D student. Likewise, if the task at hand is lubricating a BMW V-10 engine in an M5, then you NEED the A oil instead of the D oil. Like viscosity, oil quality grades/standards must be taken in context. BMW LL-04 oil offers no advanage over API SN oil if you're changing it every 5,000 miles in a 4-banger, and API SN is not considered just "barely acceptable" here.

Quoted for truth.

 

[blackman777]

API is probably sufficient for older engines. However I doubt modern (read: complicated, finicky) engines will see 400,000 miles. They have Variable Cylinder Management (which sludges oil) or hybrid engines (that develop leaks as early as 100,000 & stop/start a lot) or very delicate turbos (to gain 200hp from a tiny 1.3 L). Oh and let's not forget Direct Injection which has known clotting issues & EGR that loads-up the oil with soot & Lean Burn hondas that scorch cylinder walls and..... well I could go on and on. Modern engines are hard on oil (IMHO). You just spent $20 to 30,000 on a car. Which will burn ~11,000 dollars gasoline every 100,000 miles. Why go cheap with D-grade level API/ILSAC oil (which passed no other tougher tests)? For what reason? To save 5 dollars? A measly 0.02% of the car ownership cost? (shrug) I always go with the highest specs I can find on the bottle, in order to keep my modern (read: finicky) engine running. Yeah I spend $5.50 per quart. BFD. LOL. It's worth it to get the top-testing VW507.00 or Dexos 2 oil rather than the D-grade oil at the bottom of the list.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: blackman777

Modern engines are hard on oil (IMHO). You just spent $20 to 30,000 on a car. Which will burn ~11,000 dollars gasoline every 100,000 miles. Why go cheap with D-grade level API/ILSAC oil (which passed no other tougher tests)? For what reason?

Now we're getting to the subjective. And that's okay, we're humans and we have opinions. As long as you present them as such, they won't be challenged as strongly. You prefer to use more expensive oil in your engine. That's great. You did ask why one would use the oil that's recommended in the owner's manual, and for what reason. The answer is as before: that's what is sufficient for the job; it addresses the task at hand. You can choose to pay twice as much as you need to for the lubricant, and that's fine if it makes you feel better.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: blackman777

I always go with the highest specs I can find on the bottle, in order to keep my modern (read: finicky) engine running. Yeah I spend $5.50 per quart. BFD. LOL. It's worth it to get the top-testing VW507.00 or Dexos 2 oil rather than the D-grade oil at the bottom of the list.

What car/engine do you have and what specs does it call for? And which oil are you running in it?

 

[FutureDoc]

Can we not use the D- student example... D- do not get Degrees. If anything the SN/GF-5 is at least a Cs-get-degrees mark and just because it has an SN/GF-5 it could be a C, B or A student regardless of the label. The D student might be those iffy-er oils touting their SL/SM standards. Really, those standards are Pass/Fail. Depending on the application, going for the most highest standard is like doing the non-required readings in a physical education education class taken P/F.

 

[blackman777]

I know an engineer who got a degree with D+ average. That's basically what an API or ILSAC oil is. Would you hire a D+ engineer for your car?? I didn't realize a simple list of oil tests/specs would cause so much controversy. I thought it obvious some specs were tougher to pass than others (and API ranks at the bottom). I thought people would appreciate the relative ranking of these specs. LOL I have VW, Honda, and also maintain my dad's GM. I use the relevant manufacturer specs (which are all very tough to pass), and would never use any oil that only carried API or ILSAC starburst. Spending 1-2 dollars extra per quart on my ~30,000 dollar cars is trivial. (Heck I could probably save thousandss if I cut back on my own intake (food).)

 

[FutureDoc]

Manufacturers specs are hard to pass... it mostly depends if it is a good oil and you PAY the manufacturer to get that label. Actually, depending on my need, I would have no problem using a D+ engineer... I know a lot of folks who are very good mechanically but are terrible when it comes to class-room settings. I also know a few A+ engineers who can't turn a wrench so to speak. I was a B- undergrad and yet was one of the strongest/the strongest in my doctoral program. Your point? The whole point is that the API/ILSAC set a consumer/trade standard. It is a "common" standard. Manufactures might want different things and that is fine... but many have those unique standards for profit purposes only. If they can get a cut on every qt of oil, that is a lot of money. However, if an oil is testing and meeting those standards without that "manufacturer receipt of approval" then you are just paying more for a licensed product.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: blackman777

API is probably sufficient for older engines. However I doubt modern (read: complicated, finicky) engines will see 400,000 miles. They have Variable Cylinder Management (which sludges oil) or hybrid engines (that develop leaks as early as 100,000 & stop/start a lot) or very delicate turbos (to gain 200hp from a tiny 1.3 L). Oh and let's not forget Direct Injection which has known clotting issues & EGR that loads-up the oil with soot & Lean Burn hondas that scorch cylinder walls and..... well I could go on and on. Modern engines are hard on oil (IMHO). You just spent $20 to 30,000 on a car. Which will burn ~11,000 dollars gasoline every 100,000 miles. Why go cheap with D-grade level API/ILSAC oil (which passed no other tougher tests)? For what reason? To save 5 dollars? A measly 0.02% of the car ownership cost? (shrug) I always go with the highest specs I can find on the bottle, in order to keep my modern (read: finicky) engine running. Yeah I spend $5.50 per quart. BFD. LOL. It's worth it to get the top-testing VW507.00 or Dexos 2 oil rather than the D-grade oil at the bottom of the list.

I've gotta just shake my head at the entire context of this post. The cheap oil comment is comedy gold. First off with today's engine management controls today's engines don't suffer nearly as much from combustion by-products and fuel dilution which caused accelerated oil degradation. If SN is such a weak spec why is it that many engines can run 10000 mile intervals with it. As far as vvt sludging engines you might want to look into that a bit deeper. There was a manufacturer that had issues however it's not the norm. If I can spend 20 bucks on oil,and my engine goes 400k,and you spend more for better oil and your engine goes 400k do tell how that's superior. What's completely going over your head is that euro oils meet different specs due to European legislation. They have to be tougher because they are mandated to run for more miles before oil changes are able to be done. They cost more too. Lets also remember that the sulfur content in fuel is different as well. You've completely lost your point on me. Engines are lasting longer than ever using the "garbage" oil specs we have so you go right ahead and pay more. Do you think someone is going to pay extra when you sell your car because you used expensive oil? No return on the extra dollars spent. Great thread

 

[FutureDoc]

You know that a lot of European Diesel options do not meet US emissions standard... so why should a European-spec car meet US standards just because they are higher... it would be a waste in France.

 

[cmorr]

Originally Posted By: blackman777

I know an engineer who got a degree with D+ average.That's basically what an API or ILSAC oil is. Would you hire a D+ engineer for your car??

That's why I follow the manufacturers specification/requirements for the specific vehicle. It's quite simple and only becomes complicated when those with less knowledge and experience attempt to improve things without understanding risk or reward

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Just an FYI. The 229.50/LL01 specs perform the same as their low sap twins per Lubrizol but don't have the added emissions related attributes. Personally I don't believe the BMW Certs are special. It's MB and VW which seem to be pioneers in that regard.