Oil quality these days

[Clevy]

Thanks for that enlightening info falcon.
The liqui-moly in the bimmers is interesting info for sure. I love their products and they are one of the very few,if only,oil and additive producer that you can bank on their products performing exactly as advertised.
I'm surprised about consumption with the 4.6. None of my mod motors consumes any oil in the 20 grade flavours and the only oil they were noisy with was M1.
I really like the 0w-40s. The liqui-moly looks to be very good. I've got a jug sitting at home that I'd like to use but just can't find a motor that is worthy of its goodness.
The dodge spec must be due to the mds function of the hemi.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Falcon_LS]

No problem at all! I'm quite fond of Liqui Moly because of their extremely strict quality control measures. Many on here find it unusual that most of their products do not meet the latest North American standards, but their main focus markets are Europe, Asia, the Middle East and Russia where people are more concerned with ACEA and manufacturer specifications. Their additives, however, are top class and I use Cera Tec in every one of my engines at every oil change, as recommended by their R&D Manager. Many might think this is excessive and I was only told that so I use more product, but after the second oil change interval where Cera Tec was added, you could barely feel or hear the engine running. The engines idle and rev throughout the rpm range smooth as silk second application onwards.

The only logical reason I can think of for the oil consumption was the switch. I find sometimes you need to run an oil over the course of 2 or 3 oil change intervals before consumption stabilizes. But Mopar was the only 5W-20 available at the time, quite expensive for what it was (~ $10/quart) as a conventional and had a low TBN to start off due to the ACEA C3 rating. Liqui Moly Synthoil 0w30 was the same price, and a PAO based lubricant at that.

As far as Mobil 1 goes, I have experienced a noisier valvetrain with their American sourced 5w30. Given this is only available through the local GM dealer. Mobil's official distributor sources all their products from Europe. The 0W-40 I run in my Envoy is from Belgium and the engine is as quiet as a church mouse.

 

[Clevy]

The Mobil 1 0w-40 is likely the best bang for the buck oil on earth though. Basically it can be used in pretty much any application,it's long drain capable and has more manufacturer certs than anything available.
I love cera-tec.
Is there any way you can hook me up with you're supplier and ship to me. I'm an mos2 believer but cera-tec is so far beyond mos2 its like comparing crude oil to pennzoil ultra.
I'm in Canada so if you can maybe think of a way I can get it imported or whatever. 27 bucks a can here is insanity however when cost per mike is considered its roughly the same as mos2,but a better product.
Pm me if your supplier would ship to me. I'll buy enough to make it worthwhile.
Liqui-moly doesn't cater to the 5000 mile drain mentality nor are their products watered down for our market. They are the real deal,and its refreshing to see a commercial and the advertising is true.

 

[3311]

Very interesting reading Falcon!! Can you post the GM temperature chart?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
What's interesting about Ford and 5W-20 is that it was never specified in the Middle East. Ford explicitly recommends 10w30 for all their vehicles - new vehicles always come with supplemental documents stating only 10w30 should be used. There's also an additionally printed manual outlining the use of 10w30 engine oil only . Prior to 1996, the default standard was 10W-40 or 20W-40. Oddly enough, the Mod motors that spec'd 10w30 here were spec'd for 5W-40 in Australia.

GM has always had a viscosity/temperature chart in their owner manuals, with quite a few of their vehicles calling for ACEA A3 spec, not just the GMT360 platform. I remember Australian (Holden) sourced vehicles had mentioning of a 25W-70 which very much surprised me. That's not a grade you can get here though, unfortunately. There is no mention of ILSAC in the manuals.

That's some interesting information. As for GM, it doesn't surprise me that they would be specifying an A3 type lube elsewhere and possibly just have the OLM go for longer intervals. That's quite sensible. I wonder if dexos1 is working out as planned as an international specification, or if A3 type lubes are still recommended on brand new GM stuff out your way. As you and I both mention, it would be hard to imagine your Envoy's OCIs on normal API/ILSAC lubes. A good synthetic, even A1/B1 A5/B5, maybe, but it does seem a little long.

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
The Mobil 1 0w-40 is likely the best bang for the buck oil on earth though. Basically it can be used in pretty much any application,it's long drain capable and has more manufacturer certs than anything available.
I love cera-tec.
Is there any way you can hook me up with you're supplier and ship to me. I'm an mos2 believer but cera-tec is so far beyond mos2 its like comparing crude oil to pennzoil ultra.
I'm in Canada so if you can maybe think of a way I can get it imported or whatever. 27 bucks a can here is insanity however when cost per mike is considered its roughly the same as mos2,but a better product.
Pm me if your supplier would ship to me. I'll buy enough to make it worthwhile.
Liqui-moly doesn't cater to the 5000 mile drain mentality nor are their products watered down for our market. They are the real deal,and its refreshing to see a commercial and the advertising is true.


The only drawback of Mobil 1 0W-40 is price to be honest. Locally, it is the most expensive synthetic, save for Red Line, at $13 and some change per liter. Of course marketing has a lot to do with it as well, especially for a premium product. Whilst I don't mind paying the price for quality, deep within I do wish it was a true Group IV/V as opposed to a Group III.

Liqui Moly, on the other hand, may not have the same hype as Mobil 1, but they take quality extremely seriously.

No problem on the Cera Tec. The supplier won't ship internationally, but I can arrange that myself. The only drawback I see is shipping. The local post is extremely incompetant (I was shipping injectors to the States and they ended up in Mogadishu instead of MA), so I would have to use a major freight company like DHL or FedEx to get it to you. If you can PM me your post code, let me check to see what the shipping charges will be. If it works out cheaper than the Canadian price with shipping factored in, it's all good.

Originally Posted By: 3311
Very interesting reading Falcon!! Can you post the GM temperature chart?

Originally Posted By: Garak
That's some interesting information. As for GM, it doesn't surprise me that they would be specifying an A3 type lube elsewhere and possibly just have the OLM go for longer intervals. That's quite sensible. I wonder if dexos1 is working out as planned as an international specification, or if A3 type lubes are still recommended on brand new GM stuff out your way. As you and I both mention, it would be hard to imagine your Envoy's OCIs on normal API/ILSAC lubes. A good synthetic, even A1/B1 A5/B5, maybe, but it does seem a little long.


If you are using a 5w30, newer manuals up until 2011 recommend GM-LL-A-025, but there's still no mentioning of ILSAC. They do say 5w30 is the preferred viscosity, but you're free to choose depending on expected ambient temperatures.

I haven't looked at a new GM owner's manual, but I have a gut feeling Dexos1 is a "recommended" spec and not "required". The local GMC dealer still uses ACDelco 10w30 SN/GF-5 as service fill, although the optional synthetic is ACDelco 5w30, which I beleive is a Dexos1 oil. The Chevrolet/Cadillac dealer uses Mobil 1 5w30 in premium products (mostly Cadillacs and Corvettes), but BP 20W-50 was service fill at one point for other models. Not sure if that has changed now.

 

[Garak]

Well, when they use the M1, that's certainly dexos1. I suppose expecting the public to use dexos1 isn't as reasonable if there aren't a lot of dexos1 grades available in the first place, let alone at acceptable prices.

On the right hand page, I see the Starburst, or at least part of it. That is indicative of an ILSAC approved lube. However, if they're calling for A3/B3 type lubes, they should be ignoring ILSAC altogether, particularly if the OLM is calibrated for the ACEA lubricant.

 

[Falcon_LS]

That's actually the API symbol, not ILSAC. The manual does mention an API SL rated oil should be used as a bare minimum if an ACEA A3 lubricant isn't available.

 

[Garak]

Yes, that's technically an API trademarked symbol, but that Starburst indicates Resource Conserving aka ILSAC certification. If you see the Starburst, it's ILSAC rated. Nonetheless, I wouldn't be using an SL/GF-3 lubricant for those 11,000 mile OCIs you get with the ACEA lubricant, at least not without used oil analysis to back that up.

When one looks at things objectively, with your manual as a fine example, now you see exactly why North American manufacturers tend to specify one grade and one set of certifications. Face it, people are stupid. You know what you're doing. I know what I'm doing. But you can be darned sure that if it's "allowed," someone will run 20w-50 in Saskatchewan in the winter or run an old conventional way too long.

You've obviously noticed that I defend the API/ILSAC regime. However, in the case of your Envoy, given the OLM's calibration, if it were up to me, the manual should have just recommended an A3/B3 lubricant and left it at that, with maybe, just maybe, some wording for something lesser in an emergency.

I'm sure it would do fine on an SN/GF-5 5w30 at reasonable intervals. However, given the OLM, would people follow reasonable OCIs with such a lube?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
mcallister - Well, you've had some great and logical answers. There sure is a lot of expertise and practical knowledge here on BITOG!

On another take I've watched the progression from an apathetic API controlled by the Oil purveyors (take what we give you) to one that has the requirement to respond to the needs (what do you need) of the equipment Manufacturers and ultimately to the public.

I started with API's SA,SB, SC and CA, CB CC on a journey to where we are today. In the 1950s and 1960s variable quality and availability certainly set new standards for me. In New Zealand, England, Australia and in Europe. I commenced using HD lubricants in petrol engines (in Denmark in 1960s) or only those that had "external "credibility via MiL and CAT - and Daimler Benz' standards. I won't go thru the full progression it will bore readers but the following paragraph contains critical points IME

In the 1970s-1980s MACK and Cummins stirred the API into action as their technologies overwhelmed the offerings of the API. Serious high level Technical consultation was commenced. And later in the mid 1990s ACEA was formed to encompass the Manufacturer's standards in Europe!

As an aside, one of the first tailor-made lubricants was the 20W-50 viscosity required by BMC (Austin-Morris) in 1959 for the Mini!

Today's lubricants are now generally light years ahead in quality and Technical standardisation over even the several last decades. The challenge for the Oil purveyors and the equipment Manufacturers today is to get Joe Public to use the correct product

Don't believe that? Well at present China has huge problems of lubricant quality and supply similar to what we experienced during the 1950s-1960s. This is a real nightmare for the vehicle Manufacturers who import their products for sale there. Actually a modern journey into the past

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Yes, that's technically an API trademarked symbol, but that Starburst indicates Resource Conserving aka ILSAC certification. If you see the Starburst, it's ILSAC rated. Nonetheless, I wouldn't be using an SL/GF-3 lubricant for those 11,000 mile OCIs you get with the ACEA lubricant, at least not without used oil analysis to back that up.

When one looks at things objectively, with your manual as a fine example, now you see exactly why North American manufacturers tend to specify one grade and one set of certifications. Face it, people are stupid. You know what you're doing. I know what I'm doing. But you can be darned sure that if it's "allowed," someone will run 20w-50 in Saskatchewan in the winter or run an old conventional way too long.

You've obviously noticed that I defend the API/ILSAC regime. However, in the case of your Envoy, given the OLM's calibration, if it were up to me, the manual should have just recommended an A3/B3 lubricant and left it at that, with maybe, just maybe, some wording for something lesser in an emergency.

I'm sure it would do fine on an SN/GF-5 5w30 at reasonable intervals. However, given the OLM, would people follow reasonable OCIs with such a lube?

Interesting they use this when there's no mention of ILSAC in the manual. The text underneath it says to look for this symbol and an API SL rating, if an ACEA A3 oil cannot be sourced. Then again it mentions topping up, so the A3 oil is still what's required per say.

I see exactly where you're coming from. Unfortunately, most people still wouldn't know what to look for, because you won't find that many people reading the manual. Even if they do, I'm sure there will be quite a few who won't know what to make of the temperature chart.

The downside of standardization, to me, would be the warranty period. If you're obliged to use something like a 5W-20, for instance, there's no way you'll find an ACEA approved oil of that viscosity. I remember someone in the Netherlands posting about an ACEA A3/B4 approved 0W-20, but I doubt that's something you would be able to buy off the shelf at your local Walmart. With a 5w30, fortunately, you can find products like PP or M1 meeting ACEA A5/B5 at bare minimum - if you are obliged to stick to that viscosity. When I had my '10 Ford Explorer, I was running a 5w30 with ACEA A3, MB 229.5 and BMW LL-01 approval. The dealer didn't care about ILSAC approval for warranty purposes, so long as it was a 5w30 or 10w30.

Having said that, whilst I prefer A3 over something like A5, I feel more confident using ACEA rated products over API/ILSAC. Not only for the benefits of extended drains, but when you compare even API SN to something like A3-02, the different is eye opening!

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Interesting they use this when there's no mention of ILSAC in the manual. The text underneath it says to look for this symbol and an API SL rating, if an ACEA A3 oil cannot be sourced. Then again it mentions topping up, so the A3 oil is still what's required per say.

A lot of manuals don't mention ILSAC explicitly, even here. Of course, it only confuses things more that the Starburst is actually an API mark.

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
I see exactly where you're coming from. Unfortunately, most people still wouldn't know what to look for, because you won't find that many people reading the manual. Even if they do, I'm sure there will be quite a few who won't know what to make of the temperature chart.

And that is, unfortunately, quite true. Those who would use 20w-50 in the winter here just as likely wouldn't pay attention to whatever was written in the manual in the first place.

I think there are some ACEA approved 20 grades, probably the A1/B1 side of things, but I don't pay enough attention to 5w-20 or 0w-20 grades to know for sure. The A3 issue was amply discussed here, and it's not really possible to have a 20 grade meet A3/B3 or A3/B4.

Still, for your Envoy or the Ford, you could be rest assured that an API/ILSAC lube using the North American recommended grades would work fine for you. But, that would preclude the 11,000 mile OCIs (unless you had a used oil analysis to back it up, and that costs money) and that means more oil changes and more filters and oil to buy. It's still a little odd to have a manual calling for ACEA A3 as the top choice and then a resource conserving 30 grade as the second choice. They are quite different, after all. The 5w-40 I'm using is a lot closer to an ACEA A3 lube than is any resource conserving 30.

 

[Falcon_LS]

Just had a re-read of the manual, it is a bit confusing in that sense. It requires the use of an A3 oil, but for top ups, an API SL of a suitable viscosity for climatic conditions would be fine.

The OCI's on the Ford are not really too far stretched - 12,000 km. Still, if I had to use an SN/GF-5 lube, I would go with a 5w30 meeting ACEA A5/B5 like PP or maybe M1. The conditions here are quite extreme and we get a lot of bottlenecks at exits - one moment you could be idling in traffic with an ambient of 55+ Celsius at noon with the AC on full blast, then driving down the highway at 160+ km/h an hour later. Before speed tracking cameras were installed, maxing out at 210 km/h was a regular event. After a lot of bumper to bumper driving in the city, you should see the stuff that came out the tailpipes once I slowed down to 120 km/h for the camera and went WOT back up to 210 km/h.

 

[Garak]

Given your conditions, I doubt that an SN/GF-5 oil in the Ford would be too heavily taxed on 12,000 km OCIs. The biggest worry in your heat (or any hot summer conditions, for that matter) is the cooling system. Nonetheless, there's certainly nothing wrong with PP or M1 in such usage.

Taxi service here saw 10,000 km OCIs on much older API specifications. It's interesting to note that from what I've been able to tell over the past few years (since the 4.6 L came in; my experience was with Chevy small blocks and the Ford 302), is that the cooling systems have become less problematic since the 1980s. The fleet operators who had problems back when I was doing such work were those who didn't pay attention to their cooling system. By that, I don't mean they need to do a bunch of flush and fills. We ran radiators essentially to failure. What I do mean, however, is they didn't pay attention to impending failure or problems. Overheating is beyond failure.

They'd never check fluid levels, never check for leaks on hoses, rads, or pumps, never replace thermostats, never watch gauges, never check fan clutch operation, ignore plugged fins, you name it.

The engine overheating thanks to the cooling system did them much more harm than did any API/ILSAC lube. But, you're ahead of the game on both counts, since you're not the type of guy to neglect maintenance.

 

[Falcon_LS]

If I said the Panther platform had an excellent cooling system, that would be an understatement. It's one of the handful of cars that survives the desert heat with not a single care in the world what you throw at it.

With the stock programming, I would be sat in rush hour noon traffic for over two hours sometimes and the highest coolant temperature my ScanGauge-II would ever register was 212°F (100°C) before it cooled back down to 190°F (88°C). Part of my tune included one range colder spark plugs and a 180°F (82°F) thermostat. Now the highest it ever hits is 202°F (94°C) before it cools back down to 180°F (82°C).

On all my vehicles, I flush out the coolant once a year. I've been criticized before for changing it out way earlier than necessary, but it is cheap insurance. It gives me an opportunity to thoroughly inspect all cooling system components and get some fresh coolant in there, good for another year. The second time I flush the coolant, the thermostat and all coolant hoses get replaced. At this point, I check the coolant pump as well and if I'm feeling even a bit wary, it gets replaced as well. The ScanGauge-II helps me keep an eye on the electric fan.

The biggest concern here is transmission fluid temperature really. The Grand Marquis has an excellent ATF cooler, and the highest temperature it ever hits in the middle of July (stop and go traffic) is 195°F (90°C). Once you hit the open road and get moving, it rarely gets over 185°F (85°C). During the winter, it fluctuates between 175°F - 180°F (79°C - 82°C) tops.

The Envoy, on the other hand, has a parts bin job for a cooling system. It has a radiator designed for a four banger with a mechanical fan/electric clutch setup for a 2 ton Duramax. The massive fan moves around loads of air, but the coolant pump and radiator are too weak to catch up. If you turn the AC on, the cooling system has an extremely tough job on it's hands - 220°F - 228 °F (104°C - 109 °C) coolant temperatures are a common thing. The ATF cooler, on the other hand, is integrated into the radiator and matches coolant temperature. I've got a Derale cooling pan on my 4L60E with an additional 2 quart capacity and a drain plug. It's helped a bit, but a 7 liter drain and refill with a bottle of LubeGard Red every 5,000 km is common practice, and the fluid comes out almost burnt. I've got a massive 4L60E rebuild coming up soon with an auxiliary air-to-ATF cooler to tackle the problem.

 

[Garak]

That's definitely not cool for the Envoy's cooling system, as it were. You'd think they would have done a bit better job, considering it's conceivable that people would tow with the things.

Your cooling system maintenance in the car might seem a bit excessive, but you have a different usage pattern. I don't see a problem with regular maintenance in a personal vehicle, particularly where it's going to see some temperature extremes. The taxis were a little different, since changing antifreeze annually (then we had the original green) would just involve too much downtime for not enough benefit. Ironically, the downtime is less for changing a blown hose than it is for changing coolant thanks to the cool down time if one wishes to safely drain the coolant.

I'm still unsure how some of the operators had problems with their 302 cooling systems. Keeping an eye on fluid levels, thermostat operation, and fan operation is not that difficult.

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Originally Posted By: Clevy
The Mobil 1 0w-40 is likely the best bang for the buck oil on earth though. Basically it can be used in pretty much any application,it's long drain capable and has more manufacturer certs than anything available.
I love cera-tec.
Is there any way you can hook me up with you're supplier and ship to me. I'm an mos2 believer but cera-tec is so far beyond mos2 its like comparing crude oil to pennzoil ultra.
I'm in Canada so if you can maybe think of a way I can get it imported or whatever. 27 bucks a can here is insanity however when cost per mike is considered its roughly the same as mos2,but a better product.
Pm me if your supplier would ship to me. I'll buy enough to make it worthwhile.
Liqui-moly doesn't cater to the 5000 mile drain mentality nor are their products watered down for our market. They are the real deal,and its refreshing to see a commercial and the advertising is true.


The only drawback of Mobil 1 0W-40 is price to be honest. Locally, it is the most expensive synthetic, save for Red Line, at $13 and some change per liter. Of course marketing has a lot to do with it as well, especially for a premium product. Whilst I don't mind paying the price for quality, deep within I do wish it was a true Group IV/V as opposed to a Group III.

Liqui Moly, on the other hand, may not have the same hype as Mobil 1, but they take quality extremely seriously.

No problem on the Cera Tec. The supplier won't ship internationally, but I can arrange that myself. The only drawback I see is shipping. The local post is extremely incompetant (I was shipping injectors to the States and they ended up in Mogadishu instead of MA), so I would have to use a major freight company like DHL or FedEx to get it to you. If you can PM me your post code, let me check to see what the shipping charges will be. If it works out cheaper than the Canadian price with shipping factored in, it's all good.

Originally Posted By: 3311
Very interesting reading Falcon!! Can you post the GM temperature chart?

Originally Posted By: Garak
That's some interesting information. As for GM, it doesn't surprise me that they would be specifying an A3 type lube elsewhere and possibly just have the OLM go for longer intervals. That's quite sensible. I wonder if dexos1 is working out as planned as an international specification, or if A3 type lubes are still recommended on brand new GM stuff out your way. As you and I both mention, it would be hard to imagine your Envoy's OCIs on normal API/ILSAC lubes. A good synthetic, even A1/B1 A5/B5, maybe, but it does seem a little long.


If you are using a 5w30, newer manuals up until 2011 recommend GM-LL-A-025, but there's still no mentioning of ILSAC. They do say 5w30 is the preferred viscosity, but you're free to choose depending on expected ambient temperatures.

I haven't looked at a new GM owner's manual, but I have a gut feeling Dexos1 is a "recommended" spec and not "required". The local GMC dealer still uses ACDelco 10w30 SN/GF-5 as service fill, although the optional synthetic is ACDelco 5w30, which I beleive is a Dexos1 oil. The Chevrolet/Cadillac dealer uses Mobil 1 5w30 in premium products (mostly Cadillacs and Corvettes), but BP 20W-50 was service fill at one point for other models. Not sure if that has changed now.


Thanks for the info Falcon. This for the Envoy in your sig?

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: Garak
That's definitely not cool for the Envoy's cooling system, as it were. You'd think they would have done a bit better job, considering it's conceivable that people would tow with the things.

Your cooling system maintenance in the car might seem a bit excessive, but you have a different usage pattern. I don't see a problem with regular maintenance in a personal vehicle, particularly where it's going to see some temperature extremes. The taxis were a little different, since changing antifreeze annually (then we had the original green) would just involve too much downtime for not enough benefit. Ironically, the downtime is less for changing a blown hose than it is for changing coolant thanks to the cool down time if one wishes to safely drain the coolant.

I'm still unsure how some of the operators had problems with their 302 cooling systems. Keeping an eye on fluid levels, thermostat operation, and fan operation is not that difficult.


The cooling system on the Envoy is proof of General Morons at work. I can't imagine towing anything with it as is. Ironically, I did a transmission pan drop on a '08 Escalade the other day and the [censored] exhaust pipe was in the way. There's no drain plug, and you need to take the exhaust off to drain the oil. Just what the heck kind of design is that?!

The 302's that were exported here to serve as police patrol vehicles in the 1980s had modified cooling systems. An electrical fan was fitted in addition to a mechanical fan, and there were barely any problems with them. The only thing that destroyed those vehicles was the Gulf War in 1990.

Originally Posted By: 3311
Thanks for the info Falcon. This for the Envoy in your sig?


Yes, that's the one.

 

[Garak]

No drain plug in transmission pans has been a common GM practice for years; for that matter, that applies to all kinds of North American vehicles. Back in the years between the farm and the taxi fleet, I didn't see many transmission drain plugs.

For whatever reason, it seems that GM as of late has adored putting the exhaust in the way of pans, filters, and drain plugs. The Fumoto valve and oil filter relocation kit businesses will be booming.

 

[Falcon_LS]

The Japanese appear to have more common sense when it comes to these things, as every single one I have ever changed the transmission fluid on had a drain plug. Remove the plug, let it drain, then drop the pan.

It also amazes me how the engine mounts keep failing on GMT900 applications like there's no tomorrow. The maximum you appear to be able to get out of them is 60,000 km.

Having said that, I'm glad we can still get a full frame, RWD SUV. Looks like that's going to be a thing of the past in the not too distant future. GMC were advertising the Acadia's new LED DRLs on their Facebook page this morning. How about a real GMC with a full frame and longitudinally mounted 6 at bare minimum instead? This sort of garbage is what the sheeple want these days. With products like that, they can stick "Professional Grade" where the sun don't shine.