Oil for heavily tuned 335d (w/o ecology)

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: juggernaut
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: juggernaut
FWIW, my brother also tried Mobil 1 0W/40 in his twin turbo LS2 and in this motor the oil pressure gauge showed oil pressure dropped to zero at hot idle with an oil cooler fitted!!! He has used Castrol Edge 10w/60 ever since and has been fine for the last 11 years with the twin turbos and this state of tune.


Interesting. I didn't know the cold weather rating worked that way. It sounds more like a hot viscosity problem to me.


The problem is, a 40 weight oil is having to flow to meet the 0W rating. This is also the point I was making about Mobil 1 5W/50 in my car. Such oil is all well and good in your daily driver but compromised in modified motors making double to triple the stock hp that are driven hard. I think GM normally recommends 5W/30 in their V8's but a 15w/50 if they are tracked.

IMO the larger the spread between the two specs the more compromised the oil will be when pushed.



Translation: This oil is broken?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: juggernaut
The problem is, a 40 weight oil is having to flow to meet the 0W rating. This is also the point I was making about Mobil 1 5W/50 in my car. Such oil is all well and good in your daily driver but compromised in modified motors making double to triple the stock hp that are driven hard. I think GM normally recommends 5W/30 in their V8's but a 15w/50 if they are tracked.

IMO the larger the spread between the two specs the more compromised the oil will be when pushed.

What do you mean by compromised? The 0W-40 I use in my BMW (Castrol) meets some of the toughest manufacturer's specs that exist. How is it inferior?

Yes it meets the cold pumpability requirements of 0W but that can be due to superior base stocks.

 

[juggernaut]

Yes, I also use the 0W/40 Castrol Edge in my Ford G6E Turbo and yep it meets the "tough" manufacturers specs - but I certainly wouldn't take it to a track with that oil in it.

 

[juggernaut]

Originally Posted By: w1lq
Thanks for your inputs guys

@juggernaut

Oh yeah mate, I'm not even thinking about tracking till I get my oil coolers sorted and an oil temp display set up. When I do that I think about going to bump it a notch and go 5w50 like you suggest.

Currently I'm on the fence between: Delvac 5w40 plain (SHC is sooo difficult to get here, doable but I don't really want the hassle) or Amsoil 5w40 DEO -> [Amsoil link removed]


I'm sure you will have looked into it but also run a t-stat in your oil cooler lines.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: w1lq
Im pretty sure mine is only Euro IV compliant as it's a pre-LCI version.

Maybe, point is no SCR.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: juggernaut
The problem is, a 40 weight oil is having to flow to meet the 0W rating. This is also the point I was making about Mobil 1 5W/50 in my car. Such oil is all well and good in your daily driver but compromised in modified motors making double to triple the stock hp that are driven hard. I think GM normally recommends 5W/30 in their V8's but a 15w/50 if they are tracked.

IMO the larger the spread between the two specs the more compromised the oil will be when pushed.

What do you mean by compromised? The 0W-40 I use in my BMW (Castrol) meets some of the toughest manufacturer's specs that exist. How is it inferior?

Yes it meets the cold pumpability requirements of 0W but that can be due to superior base stocks.

I would also like to know what he means by "compromised?"

 

[juggernaut]

In other words, the smaller the spread the better the stability in severe duty service. I would opt for a 10w/40 15w/40 or 15w/50 over a 0w/40 if I tracked a car.

 

[juggernaut]

For the avoidance of doubt, compromised = sheared.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: juggernaut
For the avoidance of doubt, compromised = sheared.


Bit ambiguous. The original description involved a lack of oil pressure. I suppose that is likely to be due to shear (or at least I can't think of anything else, for the little that's worth), but its unclear (to me) whether its likely to be mostly temporary or mostly permanent shear.

Still seems to be broken though.

 

[juggernaut]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: juggernaut
For the avoidance of doubt, compromised = sheared.


Bit ambiguous. The original description involved a lack of oil pressure. I suppose that is likely to be due to shear (or at least I can't think of anything else, for the little that's worth), but its unclear (to me) whether its likely to be mostly temporary or mostly permanent shear.

Still seems to be broken though.


Every time it got to hot idle, the oil pressure guage dropped to zero - this is with an oil cooler with temp activated thermo fan pulling air through it. Switched to Castrol Edge 10W/60 and has been fine ever since. With Mobil 5w/50 my cams and rockers were badly scuffed. I ended up rebuilding and modifying the motor.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: juggernaut
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: juggernaut
For the avoidance of doubt, compromised = sheared.


Bit ambiguous. The original description involved a lack of oil pressure. I suppose that is likely to be due to shear (or at least I can't think of anything else, for the little that's worth), but its unclear (to me) whether its likely to be mostly temporary or mostly permanent shear.

Still seems to be broken though.


Every time it got to hot idle, the oil pressure guage dropped to zero - this is with an oil cooler with temp activated thermo fan pulling air through it. Switched to Castrol Edge 10W/60 and has been fine ever since. With Mobil 5w/50 my cams and rockers were badly scuffed. I ended up rebuilding and modifying the motor.


I wouldn't personally run anything that skinny and my car is not at all muscular, but no oil pressure at all is quite surprising. Assuming the oil wasn't well used, and so permanently sheared, and the oil pump was OK, it suggests the VM's were completely ineffective. Perhaps a bad batch?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: juggernaut
For the avoidance of doubt, compromised = sheared.

So what evidence you have that 0W40 or whatever sheared so much that you did not have oil pressure?
Is this your assumption or?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: juggernaut
Every time it got to hot idle, the oil pressure guage dropped to zero - this is with an oil cooler with temp activated thermo fan pulling air through it. Switched to Castrol Edge 10W/60 and has been fine ever since. With Mobil 5w/50 my cams and rockers were badly scuffed. I ended up rebuilding and modifying the motor.

If an engine has "zero" oil pressure at hot idle with anything thinner than 10w-60, I'd be wondering about the engine and not the oil.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: juggernaut
Every time it got to hot idle, the oil pressure guage dropped to zero - this is with an oil cooler with temp activated thermo fan pulling air through it. Switched to Castrol Edge 10W/60 and has been fine ever since. With Mobil 5w/50 my cams and rockers were badly scuffed. I ended up rebuilding and modifying the motor.

If an engine has "zero" oil pressure at hot idle with anything thinner than 10w-60, I'd be wondering about the engine and not the oil.

^This.
There is no track engine that is in good shape that will shear down M1 0W40 (especially old VSOM version still available around the world) as much as some DI engines do in city driving and dilute oil like crazy.

 

[juggernaut]

Originally Posted By: Garak
If an engine has "zero" oil pressure at hot idle with anything thinner than 10w-60, I'd be wondering about the engine and not the oil.


The car was bought brand new (2006) and had no oil pressure issues on the factory fill nor the dealer service oil nor the Castrol 10W/60. The car was tracked on the dealer service oil and again no oil pressure issues. What the factory fill and dealer service oils are I can't tell you - so its anybody's guess - - but no doubt is was according to GM specs. The oil pressure issue only surfaced when the Mobil 1 0w/40 was used. The car was never tracked on this oil. The oil was changed to Mobil 1 when the cars was on the other side of Australia (Sydney). It was then driven back to the other side of the country (Perth) at highway speeds for approx 4,000 klms. The oil pressure issue became apparent driving around in Perth, dropped and replaced with Castrol Edge 10w/60. The turbo kit was installed one year after the car was bought (2007) and has run flawlessly for the last 11 years, 10 years on Castrol Edge. At a guess it would probably have 220K klms on the clock including track days, and 10 of those years with a very reliable 500rwhp.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: edyvw

There is no track engine that is in good shape that will shear down M1 0W40 (especially old VSOM version still available around the world) as much as some DI engines do in city driving and dilute oil like crazy.


Is there a causal connection between oil dilution and oil shearing? I mean apart from them both reducing the viscosity.

 

[juggernaut]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: juggernaut
Every time it got to hot idle, the oil pressure guage dropped to zero - this is with an oil cooler with temp activated thermo fan pulling air through it. Switched to Castrol Edge 10W/60 and has been fine ever since. With Mobil 5w/50 my cams and rockers were badly scuffed. I ended up rebuilding and modifying the motor.

If an engine has "zero" oil pressure at hot idle with anything thinner than 10w-60, I'd be wondering about the engine and not the oil.

^This.
There is no track engine that is in good shape that will shear down M1 0W40 (especially old VSOM version still available around the world) as much as some DI engines do in city driving and dilute oil like crazy.


Please tell me about your experiences using a OW/40 mobil 1 or any other similar weight oil on the track as I'd like to get a few tips from you. What bearing clearances were you using, what oil cooler setup, how much rwhp were you making and how many laps at a time were you doing, etc. Also what were your oil pressures and temps.

 

[Garak]

Do note that several GT3 teams use M1 0w-40 straight from the bottle. It's also used in other series, along with oils of very similar characteristics.

 

[juggernaut]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Do note that several GT3 teams use M1 0w-40 straight from the bottle. It's also used in other series, along with oils of very similar characteristics.


I've no doubt race teams use it where every once of hp counts, winning is everything, and engines are built to exacting tolerances and constantly tweaked as needed, plenty of airflow through various custom coolers, and with annual budgets into the millions. On this stage I wouldn't be surprised if some were using lower viscosity oil.

But we're talking street cars here where we expect sensibly modified engines to live throughout our ownership with some track days.....and where most people on this forum quibble about the cost of 6 litres of sythetic gas oil once a year.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: juggernaut
Originally Posted By: Garak
Do note that several GT3 teams use M1 0w-40 straight from the bottle. It's also used in other series, along with oils of very similar characteristics.


I've no doubt race teams use it where every once of hp counts, winning is everything, and engines are built to exacting tolerances and constantly tweaked as needed, plenty of airflow through various custom coolers, and with annual budgets into the millions. On this stage I wouldn't be surprised if some were using lower viscosity oil.

But we're talking street cars here where we expect sensibly modified engines to live throughout our ownership with some track days.....and where most people on this forum quibble about the cost of 6 litres of sythetic gas oil once a year.

I saw it used on Golf GTI II and III, Lancia Delta etc. that are modified for races. Anything from Mobil1 0W40, Castrol 0W40, 5W40 etc, etc.
Youa re the one that is talking about shearing with 0 pressure without any evidence, and then when we raised issue with it you want to see PhD credentials. Are you part of new generation that makes a claim, but then whole world need to provide proof? So we already asked you (at least I did) to offer us some numbers etc. but you conveniently skipped that and then asked us for proof.
So yeah, I saw those oils being used, I worked for car magazine as test driver and as test driver on oil development. IMO: It is engine or modifications. M1 0W40 is fine.