oil for 1972 Datsun 240z

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When this came up yesterday I went to and read that blog from end to (winding) end. I admire the guy's effort and I'm not smart enough to debate specifics but I did notice one thing that jumped out at me. Quite aside from his specific testing on additives-no additives, this vs. that, etc etc, he mentions that the base oils rule.

Now he provides no more insight into the base oils than we (unfortunately) have. And he doesn't cross reference the base oils to results other than conventional to synthetic. It struck me that, given his statement that the tests are not to be construed as in a real engine environment, that unless and until those tests are conducted inside a representative engine(s) we still have no idea how those oils differ from one another and how they compare in ALL the ways we need to know. Just the view of a layman.
 
You are right. I didn't want to hi-jack this thread. Sorry if it happened.

And I know he is polarizing guy, but the relative ranking he provides (oil to oil) is valid in some way... I think it's up to us (BITOG) to look closely and see how that data might be useful? If we claim to know about oil, how does his data fit in?

Is anyone else doing head 2 head oil testing in any machine? Have the refiners been able to keep the general audience from doing this (obviously it would enhance one companies sales and and lessen anothers...)?

I come to BITOG to learn about oil. It's what keeps my high mileage cars and trucks from dyeing prematurely. If it's my job, as a responsible consumer, to know what works; why would I not want to know what someone with a meaningful background says? Same applies to other owners of older or high mileage cars like the OP in this thread.

Running Castrol GTX 20W-050 was what we all did in the old days if we leaned on our motors hard enough... Turns out that 540 RAT's testing puts that old oil pretty well up in the ranking. So his data coincides with my experience. Same goes to Motul for race bikes and 2-stroke motors (race saws). But there are maybe better choices now... How would I know if I did not read here, and other places?

99% of what I read here is opinion. Not verifiable or repeatable in any way... Should I diss all the other posters on BITOG for that? No, I should look for a trend or consensus as that might make the sample size larger and more meaningful. Especially among folks who have had their motors apart with high mileage...

I was one of 540 RAT's bigger critics over on Chevelles.com for years where guys are building 800 HP BBC running 9 & 10 sec 1/4's in steel bodied cars that they can drive to the track. Over there they report a lot of cam/lifter failures.

I have looked at the photos of the parts and been involved in the discussions. I have never personally lost cam in 50 odd years - yet... Some of these maybe oil related high wear, high pressure failures. The thing 540 RAT seems to think he has an insight about...

After reading, and re-reading his winding blog, I finally started to get what's going on, I think... So I bring that element here to see if others have any additional insights, or if his data might make someone feel better about their decision/choice?

But, I'm really taken back by the general condescending tone of dismissal. I'm glad that DeepFriar went there and read it. At least I know there is one other person on BITOG that can help me and some others maybe use the data for older motors and high performance applications. I think the 240Z here could use a well ranked oil to good effect.

Since Maxlife is rated about No 8 or so, I'd go there for a cost effective solution for an older motor and feel comfortable doing it
smile.gif


I'm switching up to Maxlife myself for at least one car based on 540 RAT's work. I need to pick an oil? All HM's are about the same relative cost, so why not use one that rates well?

And guess what, other BITOG folks are reporting good luck with that oil too. There seems to be some correlation going on between here and there...

Gotta keep those older pre-smog check motors happy as long as we can
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I don't know where you get your info from but ain't 540 RAT. He does purposefully state that he is not duplicating an internal engine that would take years and thousands of hours of run time to generate data. He is testing resistance to wear in a controlled pressure test rig:

That's almost precisely what I said.

Also, just because it's oil to oil testing, doesn't mean it's valid. I can compare colours of one oil to another. Also, let's get this done mathematically rigorous. How many trials does he use for each oil? Does he use various samples from different lot numbers? How is he analysing his errors? Why is he not publishing his error analysis?

And, it's not repeatable. There's no error analysis for someone else to even compare to, should they try to duplicate his work. As for "a lot of pro racers," that's anecdotal, and exceedingly vague. Even different types of drag racing use vastly different oils, let alone when you consider different types of racing altogether.

And my concerns are even ignoring the wider issues that Shannow brought up. I'm just hitting his testing methodology as it is, ignoring other fantastic and unsubstantiated conclusions he's made. Even if he were correct that his helps "a lot of pro racers," that does little good to the average Joe on the street. I'm not going to SF to ask them to fill a jug for me, nor am I going to base my oil choice on what works good in a top fuel dragster, unless that's what I happen to be filling with oil.

As for condescending tones, well, that's what happens when a study poo poos everything that lubrication engineers have done for decades, not to mention the work done by OEMs and oil certification agencies. You've read my posts on this before. I've said there might be some wisdom buried in the blog. But, it's buried under a lot of cruft. Cam issues are just that. Issues. Not one issue. There are many contributing factors, and have been over the years.

There are guys on this board who know their stuff, and have no dog in the fight. If they thought that choosing an oil by this blog was the ideal choice, they would have said so.

As to the OP, he has an engine that gives him a lot of options. If it were me, I'd be ignoring most 10w-40 options, unless it needed a HM oil. If you want a 40 grade, there are plenty of 15w-40 options that will have decent AW levels. There is also Valvoline VR1 10w-30. There is no need to break the bank to get a suitable oil for the vehicle. The vehicle also doesn't need to be overdosed on AW or EP additives. It doesn't need Joe Gibbs or M1 Racing.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak

There are guys on this board who know their stuff, and have no dog in the fight. If they thought that choosing an oil by this blog was the ideal choice, they would have said so.

As to the OP, he has an engine that gives him a lot of options. If it were me, I'd be ignoring most 10w-40 options, unless it needed a HM oil. If you want a 40 grade, there are plenty of 15w-40 options that will have decent AW levels. There is also Valvoline VR1 10w-30. There is no need to break the bank to get a suitable oil for the vehicle. The vehicle also doesn't need to be overdosed on AW or EP additives. It doesn't need Joe Gibbs or M1 Racing.


Ah, I am not say "IDEAL" choice method. Just one layer in the whole spectrum of information that flows into a choice. Certainly availability factors in, as does cost. The OP says he won't see lower than 70* F, so 0W and 5W have no real bearing. And I whole-heartedly agree on the HM oils as the first choice. They are targeted, in part, at the older style engines. Exactly what we have here.

I would not recommend any pure racing oil for this car. It needs the full range of modern chemistry. I dunno about "needing" ZDP... I think it could live quite well with the calcium based AW packages...

And I suspect that because this motor lived so long with all the older less sophisticated oils of yesteryear, it could run real well on a modern HDEO, so I agree with you there too.

But, if I had ten or twelve oils to choose from, I might look at RAT's list to see which came higher, and price being the same, go with that one
smile.gif
 
The desire to believe in this test is strong.

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Ah, I am not say "IDEAL" choice method. Just one layer in the whole spectrum of information that flows into a choice. Certainly availability factors in, as does cost. The OP says he won't see lower than 70* F, so 0W and 5W have no real bearing. And I whole-heartedly agree on the HM oils as the first choice. They are targeted, in part, at the older style engines. Exactly what we have here.

But, if I had ten or twelve oils to choose from, I might look at RAT's list to see which came higher, and price being the same, go with that one
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Ah, I am not say "IDEAL" choice method. Just one layer in the whole spectrum of information that flows into a choice. Certainly availability factors in, as does cost.

Given the low stress his application is under, at least with respect to the issues that this oil "testing" is supposed to be addressing, what's the point? I might as well point him to low TBN oils for CNG and LPG engines which he doesn't have, or low phosphorus oils to protect a cat he doesn't have, or perhaps a nice ACEA C rated oil to protect the DPF, which he doesn't have. If the oils highly rated in the blog actually do help protect a very high performance engine that would benefit from such an oil at the margins of failure, I'm not sure how this applies here.

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I would not recommend any pure racing oil for this car. It needs the full range of modern chemistry. I dunno about "needing" ZDP... I think it could live quite well with the calcium based AW packages...

Just about every oil, with very, very few exceptions, will have a phosphorus based anti-wear package. Personally, I would choose with some consideration based upon the original specifications. 30s that would have been used at the time would have an elevated HTHS. Phosphorus levels weren't limited, but that doesn't mean ZDDP was shoveled in. So, Valvoline VR1 or just about any HDEO would do the trick.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
The desire to believe in this test is strong.

I'm going to email the blog link to Ron Dennis and James Allison. What's the point in having a bespoke lube from Mobil or Shell when we have this list out there.
 
Just for the folks who search for this later:

I lied guys. Its a 1971.
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We found out the engine has the E31 head which has a higher compression ratio compared to later E88. Needless to say, it needs a high zinc oil so we are now running a 15w40. I am not sure on the differences, but a decrease in HP was noticed with the E88's. The E31 was on years 1970 and 1971.

The 10w40 was hardly used so I caught it in a clean container and am using it in the oil consuming push mowers. Mark the date BITOG, I am admitting to useing 2x oil..
smile.gif
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
We found out the engine has the E31 head which has a higher compression ratio compared to later E88. Needless to say, it needs a high zinc oil so we are now running a 15w40. I am not sure on the differences, but a decrease in HP was noticed with the E88's.


Can you explain that?
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
We found out the engine has the E31 head which has a higher compression ratio compared to later E88. Needless to say, it needs a high zinc oil so we are now running a 15w40. I am not sure on the differences, but a decrease in HP was noticed with the E88's.


Can you explain that?


Darn, you got me before I had a chance to change my post.

I had left out the fact that it was a 1971 prior to posting which would make sense why the engine has the E31.

What exactly are you curious about? If my edited post doesnt answer your question, let me know.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
All good
smile.gif
Does E31 head info have the seat pressures and the open pressures for the valve system?


I apologize I don't have the specifics. Just going by what I've been told.


After a quick google, this is the best I've got aside from some serious forum(s) digging.
http://www.zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/head.htm
 
I ran 10W30, and 10W- or 15W-40 in mine. Dad raced his '70 with a 30. The engines have the same basic type of follower system as my current Honda motorcycle. They're not the Euro-style foolishness that needs super high HTHS + super-high ZDDP.
 
60s and 70s engines aren't THAT picky on what oil you put in them, anything from 10w30 to 20w50 would work fine in your Z so as long as it has an ok amount of zddp like M1 15w50 or most HDEOs and Valvoline VR1.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Nissan101
20w50 oil of your choice


This.

I ran GTX 20W50 in my 280Z.


Pretty sure the current GTX 20w50 has 600ppm of Zddp which is not ideal, 800-900 at least is what i'd want in any flat tappet engine
Plus there are other oils like Valvoline VR1 which cost slightly more yes but with that you can forget about zddp as it has twice the amount of GTX , and show superior analysis'
 
I know this is an old thread, but I had great luck with M1 0W-40 in my L28ET with aftermarket cam.

Excellent oil pressure, no scoring on the Schneider cam, and increased (albeit marginally) fuel economy over M1 15w-50 when I wasn't cruising near redline on the autobahn.

I originally ran M1 15W-50 and later HM 5W-30, but permanently switched to the 0W-40 to keep one oil in the garage.

A few people said my car would "blow up..." It didn't.
 
Originally Posted By: Jimzz
High mileage quaker state 10w30 or the Rotella 10w30 is what I would start with.


This. Or Pennzoil HM. Maybe Mobil 1 HM 10W-30 or 10W-40 if you want to spend more..
 
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