Oil filter magnets again

[69Torino]

Some Allison transmissions have spin on filters, with a round magnet that nestles between the case and filter, around the threaded adapter:

I have one of these magnets, from Allison. On the next oil change for either the Marauder or the Freestyle, I’m going to see if this magnet fits in a FL820-S Ford filter. You can get these Allison magnets on Ebay for $8-$10.

The only foreseeable problem is if the magnet doesn’t allow the filter to seat fully. The Allison filter had considerably more depth from the tapping plate to the edge of the sealing gasket than a conventional oil filter.

 

[Pajero]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I use a magnetic drain plug in all my vehicles. I have also used magnets (not very good ones) on the oil filter can, but seemed to get more collected on a good magnetic drain plug instead. I'd rather have this crud on the magnet then going round and round through the engine.

Tacoma at 4K miles (during break-in)


Tacoma at 45K miles - about 1/4 the amount of captured crud



I have to admit. I just went through my first OCI with Redline Motor oil and I found NO, ferreous particles on my Gold oil plug. WOW! There has always been something to wipe. Absolutely no grey paste or anything visible to the eye. I wiped it and only saw used oil. I've used Mobil 0W40, PUP, Royal Purple, Magnatec, Amsoil. Now I'm sure there may have been stuff I couldn't see, but nonetheless I'm was impressed! But, does this help negate the cost of the oil? IDK, but I don't smoke and only drink on special occasions. Must enjoy life!


Respectfully,

Pajero!

 

[ZZman]

Remember that filter magnets are drawing very small particles that basically weight nothing. This in comparison to the magnet somehow affecting a strong spring in a bypass.
I asked FilterMag and they said their magnets don't affect bypass valves.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Intersting Noria disagrees and lists a benefit of a magnet as "controlling particles during a bypass event" it would seem they view holding something back vs holding nothing as benefit.

They list 4 benefits of a magnet in the event you are concerned about

Your position seems to be the mags dont hold much to anything until flow stops and that what one sees is the condition at shut off.

My experience is that fine and even moderately sized particles are absolutely held in place over time which is why successive filter cuts over time show the piles growing over time until the OCI take place.

leave it on longer it catches more - not more and more washes off - the piles wouldnt show growth over time if that were the case they would continually be washed off or stay barely visible.


Wouldnt you rather catch something than nothing?


UD









I don't think "Noria" disagrees with me or cares about me. My point is at low speeds flow is slow and maybe the oil is hot. Particles will stick to the magnets according to the strength of the magnet. When the flow is increased or the oil is cold and the motor could go into bypass, the particles weakly captured at low flow now can be knocked off the magnet at high flow. Since this is an unknown case by case situation, I said I would rather use magnets on filters without a bypass. These are also particles the filter would have caught. Of course the Fram Ultra catches everything, as we hear, so that filter doesn't need magnets. It's so good it cleans new oil cleaner, someone said. All other filters can use magnets.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Intersting Noria disagrees and lists a benefit of a magnet as "controlling particles during a bypass event" it would seem they view holding something back vs holding nothing as benefit.

They list 4 benefits of a magnet in the event you are concerned about

Your position seems to be the mags dont hold much to anything until flow stops and that what one sees is the condition at shut off.

My experience is that fine and even moderately sized particles are absolutely held in place over time which is why successive filter cuts over time show the piles growing over time until the OCI take place.

leave it on longer it catches more - not more and more washes off - the piles wouldnt show growth over time if that were the case they would continually be washed off or stay barely visible.


Wouldnt you rather catch something than nothing?


UD









I don't think "Noria" disagrees with me or cares about me. My point is at low speeds flow is slow and maybe the oil is hot. Particles will stick to the magnets according to the strength of the magnet. When the flow is increased or the oil is cold and the motor could go into bypass, the particles weakly captured at low flow now can be knocked off the magnet at high flow. Since this is an unknown case by case situation, I said I would rather use magnets on filters without a bypass. These are also particles the filter would have caught. Of course the Fram Ultra catches everything, as we hear, so that filter doesn't need magnets. It's so good it cleans new oil cleaner, someone said. All other filters can use magnets.


So this is what I have on the Fram XG16 behind my transmission cooler … and it has a fair size and robust magnet. Still seems if a few particles come off the magnet … they follow a normal filter >>> return line route. This thing made a drastic change over what I used to find on the pan magnets ... so I don’t think much of anything is coming off in the 4L60e application …

 

[Pajero]

Earth's magnetic field protects us. Without it all life on the surface would die of radiation poisoning. We also live in a bubble, as does our solar system google: Heliosphere! We are but a grain of sand and we argue about magnets. That's why us OCD people love BITOG.

We are carbon based life. So magnets matter. "All magnets matter." I'm just saying....lol


Respectfully,

Pajero!

 

[Pajero]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Intersting Noria disagrees and lists a benefit of a magnet as "controlling particles during a bypass event" it would seem they view holding something back vs holding nothing as benefit.

They list 4 benefits of a magnet in the event you are concerned about

Your position seems to be the mags dont hold much to anything until flow stops and that what one sees is the condition at shut off.

My experience is that fine and even moderately sized particles are absolutely held in place over time which is why successive filter cuts over time show the piles growing over time until the OCI take place.

leave it on longer it catches more - not more and more washes off - the piles wouldnt show growth over time if that were the case they would continually be washed off or stay barely visible.


Wouldnt you rather catch something than nothing?


UD








I don't think "Noria" disagrees with me or cares about me. My point is at low speeds flow is slow and maybe the oil is hot. Particles will stick to the magnets according to the strength of the magnet. When the flow is increased or the oil is cold and the motor could go into bypass, the particles weakly captured at low flow now can be knocked off the magnet at high flow. Since this is an unknown case by case situation, I said I would rather use magnets on filters without a bypass. These are also particles the filter would have caught. Of course the Fram Ultra catches everything, as we hear, so that filter doesn't need magnets. It's so good it cleans new oil cleaner, someone said. All other filters can use magnets.


So this is what I have on the Fram XG16 behind my transmission cooler … and it has a fair size and robust magnet. Still seems if a few particles come off the magnet … they follow a normal filter >>> return line route. This thing made a drastic change over what I used to find on the pan magnets ... so I don’t think much of anything is coming off in the 4L60e application …




I always considered one of those a weak link in the oil system. Does it stay put? How would it fair in extreme 4x4. I have skid plates, but the bumps and articulation. My mechanic made the point. I already have a Gold plug etc. Just want opinions? Thanks in advance!


Respectfully,

Pajero!

 

[4WD]

The MagnaFilter or remote filters in general? It’s been on there for years … run the beat up road to/from my camp like it’s the Baja … 10 miles each way … that truck rides like a tank on any road … so it sees plenty shock & awe …
Mine is in the grill enjoying the fresh air … if it’s taken out so is the radiator so I’m done …

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
So lets see, who's opinion actually has weight.......?

Who publishes machinery lubrication magazine?
Who is highly respected in the lubrication community?
Who has published a multitude of articles on the subject?

With Noria and Jim Fitch we get excellent well written though out articles that demonstrate why magnets make a ton of sense.

Heres an interesting benefit graph worth looking at.



Do the detractors have something (anything) similar to proffer except their unqualified opinions ? - ANYTHING?




https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/781/particle-contamination

"Magnetic Susceptibility

Permanent magnets are used in some filters and online wear particle sensors. Particles of iron or steel that are attracted to a magnetic field are preferentially separated from the oil by these devices. Later, any particles that may have sloughed off these separators and sensors (due to shock or surge flow conditions) are often left magnetized.

They can then magnetically grip onto steel orifices, glands and oilways restricting flow or simply interfering with machine part movement. Additionally, directional control and servo valves commonly used in hydraulic systems deploy the use of electro magnets in their solenoids. The actuation of these valves can be adversely affected by the magnetic susceptibility of iron and steel particles that are attracted by the solenoid."

I think magnetic filtration is probably a net benefit. That doesn't mean it has no downsides.

I wouldn't necessarily take Machinery Lubrication as the gold standard for truth either way. I've seen some total bollocks on there.

Someone posted some actual research on this a while ago. Can't look for it now because I'm invigilating an exam, but I might have a look later.

Have a banana.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Of course the Fram Ultra catches everything, as we hear, so that filter doesn't need magnets. It's so good it cleans new oil cleaner, someone said. All other filters can use magnets.


Since you brought it up ... it was actually a TG which is 99% @ 20 microns. Compare the ISO particle count data in this thread - LINK

Need a magnet to catch the very small ferrous particles that even a 99% @ 20 micron filter can't catch at a high percentage.

 

[UncleDave]

As for random iron becoming magnetized thats a non issue - heat demagnetizes temporarily magnetized particles almost instantly -
In a "cold" hydraulic system magnetic susceptibility might theoretically become a problem.
One can try this on their own by magnetizing something like a pin and seeing just how long it takes getting it magnetized then see how long keeps it- them warm it up - gone.
In terms of magnetized particle in hot oil - its a non issue.

I too have seen some zingers from machinery lubrication, but not from Jim Fitch.

Goodtimes - I understand your position and agree to disagree without being disagreeable.
I dont run bypass filters in my boats and run Mags, but dont hesitate to put them on bypass filters.

I'm going to side with Jim Fitch in that having a mag and catching something is a better outcome than catching nothing at all and guaranteeing particle flows during bypass events.

4wd - The magna filter disk is pretty cool but you need the clearance to use it and I tend to shy away from throw aways even though this particle product would likely have a log life. I have no doubt it is very effective.

- but of all these mag schemes I prefer linctex scheme of buttons in the dome- I should have thought of that.

UD

 

[UncleDave]

There is an article in Noria about a " Mag Dog"

Basically its a plumbed bypass with a magnetic filter vs a media based one -

Same principle with 1% flow through it but the claim is no slough off can ever occur because the flow rate and can size prevent it.

I think if I were going with a plumbed solution Id go for a real media bypass and that way I could catch non ferrous particles as well.

UD

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

As for random iron becoming magnetized thats a non issue - heat demagnetizes temporarily magnetized particles almost instantly -
In a "cold" hydraulic system magnetic susceptibility might theoretically become a problem.
One can try this on their own by magnetizing something like a pin and seeing just how long it takes getting it magnetized then see how long keeps it- them warm it up - gone.
In terms of magnetized particle in hot oil - its a non issue.
UD


This seems plausible.

I suppose you could confirm it by looking at adherence of particles to a steel test surface where there is a lot of magnetic filtration capacity installed.

OTOH, the strength of the magnet is also going to be reduced in hot oil, which might cause it to shed some of the particles aquired when it was cold. How big an effect this is will depend on the effective range of attraction. Since I THINK (don't remember seeing any numbers) this is very short, it probably isn't a very big effect.

Couldn't find that research-based post, (It was positive on filter mags, IIRC, and , rather surpisingly, showed removal of non-ferrous metal along with the ferrous). Did find this earlier dfiscussion though.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...ter#Post4226229

Probably not the only one.

 

[UncleDave]

Its pretty common to see reduced particles across the board with Mags.

It seems that lots of other particles like to stick to iron and they get pulled out along with it.

Not to the level of a bypass for certain- but more than I would have expected before looking at the data.


UD