Oil filter magnets again

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
A magnet happily gathering iron fuzz when times are easy, may lose it's gathered iron fuzz when the engine is flared up cold or wot after idle.

Okay but that fuzz would still be circulating in the oil anyway assuming it wasn't trapped by the filter. Why not trap some of it with the magnet instead of just letting it all circulate and never be trapped?


My point exactly.

People are worried about stuff coming loose that wouldn't otherwise even be caught but just circulate endlessly.

Its a something or nothing scenario.

UD

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: i_hate_autofraud
Originally Posted By: Ducked
I think, on balance, that they'd be a good thing, though I haven't yet used any except a mag drain plug, which is the commonest and least convincing application.

I do wonder if its a great idea to have magnetized wear particles in your oil, and I also wonder if the designs that put a really strong magnet next to the filter bypass valve might interfere with its operation.


Particles won't be magnetized by simply being caught and stuck to the inside of the filter shell (ie, when using a FilterMag on the
outside). Tiny particles in a relatively thick flowing fluid don't have a chance to pick up a meaningful field of their own.
In any normal healthy engine these particles are from .1 to max 10 microns!

The bypass valve is influenced by a heavy spring and oil pressure, the valve is located along the centreline of the filter and is too
far from magnets on the outside of the filter can.

I looked that these issues too when I started using FilterMags 4 years ago.


The particles on my magnetic drain plug, which are in direct contact, are demonstrably magnetised.

"Normal, healthy engines" aren't my primary concern. I'm mostly concerned about MY engine, but even a "normal healthy" engine is going to have particles bigger than 10 microns. OEM filters don't generally filter down to 10 microns, and some particles are going to be intercepted before they reach the filter anyway.

I was thinking of these designs as examples that might have issues.

These people http://www.magna-guard.com/MagnaGuard.html do a magnet that fits inside the filter, in the central outflow channel. Apparently not much to it, just pop a magnet in. Rather disappointingly from a flux density point of view, it’s a ceramic (“ceramic-8”) magnet (though in this invasive location, temperature stability will be an issue with at least some grades of neodymium magnets.)

The filter outlet channel seems the wrong place for a magnet, since if the wear particles are washed off by the relatively high oil flow there, there is no downstream physical filter to protect the bearing journals from the clumps of possibly magnetized wear particles.



This design http://www.magneticfiltration.com/halex_coil/overview differs in that it apparently has a large powerful neodymium magnet which is located outsidethe dome-end of the spin-on filter by a steel(?) coil. It seems possible that the magnetised coil transfers trapped particles down to the magnet, perhaps improving trapping efficiency and capacity (though I havn’t seen that claimed).

I'd be concerned that a very powerful magnet in that location might interfere with the operation of the filters internal bypass valve, which is often at that end of the filter

The bandolier jacket of neodymium bar magnets around the circumference of the filter does seem like a better design

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
A magnet happily gathering iron fuzz when times are easy, may lose it's gathered iron fuzz when the engine is flared up cold or wot after idle.

Okay but that fuzz would still be circulating in the oil anyway assuming it wasn't trapped by the filter. Why not trap some of it with the magnet instead of just letting it all circulate and never be trapped?


My point exactly.

People are worried about stuff coming loose that wouldn't otherwise even be caught but just circulate endlessly.

Its a something or nothing scenario.

UD


True. But it seems possible that magnetised particles could be more damaging, because they are specifically attracted to steel surfaces like bearing journals and cam lobes.

 

[UncleDave]

linctex put neodymium buttons in the inlet done - you don't even need to cut it open see what they catch, and you get the benefit of oil flow directly over them.

I think this is likely the way Ill go in the future when space permits.

It takes many singular directional strokes across a magnet to magnetize something like a pin - then it loses its magnetism almost instantly with any applied heat and very quickly in any case.

In that catching ferrous debris is an issue of proximity to the flux a filter side mags likely catch a bit more, filtermag recommend an inch or two from the base as opposed to near the top where the bypass could be effected by such a strong magnet.

I wouldn't ever put a magnet in the outflow.

UD

 

[UncleDave]

Even if the tiny particles become magnetized (I doubt it) it will be only be for seconds as oils heat will nearly instantly demag a previously magnetized particle. - you can try this yourself with a pin and hair dryer.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Magnet drain plugs are not in a high pressure flow stream, but the flow stream inside an oil filter is strong. I wouldn't use magnets on a dome end or dirty side bypass filter unless I knew what was going on inside.


They seem to do just fine.

The filter I have on there now has eight magnets, not just 4.

Originally Posted By: Linctex

Magnets are 8mm N50 neodymium

 

[i_hate_autofraud]

Originally Posted By: Dyusik
A magnet mounted on the drain plug sees what kind of "flow" exactly? Oil trickles/dumps into the oil pan onto the surface of the oil. The only flow path to speak of is the pickup tube ducking oil up. We are not talking about an in line filter. So you are right, there is no delta pressure. Even if you were to flash heat the magnet to 900 degrees and it suddenly dumps a large amount of debris, it will be suspended shortly in a large amount of oil, and majority will settle out of suspension, namely the large chunks. Have no fear.


Yup, drain plug magnets don't see a flow like what you get thru an oil filter. There are a few members go got lots of
pick up on a plug magnet, mostly because of diesel break-in, etc. In my case I'm down to 9 PPMs Fe, so I can't see that on the plug at all.

The oil filter is an ideal place for magnets, all the oil MUST flow thru there several times a minute for 5K, 10K miles, whatever
your change interval is. each time I cut open the filter with the filter mags in place, I 'll see decent pick-up! Better there then
in the oil the whole time while it recirculates 400,000 times by the time I change it!

 

[edwardh1]

what does toyota do?

 

[webfors]

What are the implications of a bottom end bypass valve and a bypass event with ferrous material stuck to the side of the can?

 

[i_hate_autofraud]

Originally Posted By: webfors
What are the implications of a bottom end bypass valve and a bypass event with ferrous material stuck to the side of the can?


There's no impications at all. I've used FiterMags and extra magnets to pick up as much wear metals as possible for the last 4yrs.

The wear metal picked up on the inside walls of the filter can is less then 1/16" thick, very small particles, not 'shavings' at all.

Magnet strength deceases by the square of the distance, so 1/4" inside the filter, the field is too low to effect the bypass.
If the bypass opens due to a clogged media, it functions as intended, stuff stuck to the magnet areas stay put.

I got pics just like in this PDF:

FILTERMAG vs HOMEBREW
https://app.box.com/s/uxvu8dmscf5wcgftutdm0ejqwgn86tw7

 

[UncleDave]

The break in Honda A02 @ oil filter I cut open 2 days ago at 7K Hondas MM said 30% was remaining.

Glad all this wasnt circling through my parts. It was notably built up in places.


UD

 

[UncleDave]

In regards to the upside or downside should you or shouldn't you, this guy says this- that guy says that,

- this quote from Jim Fitch at Noria pretty much says it all.


"Years of experience from the user community have provided ample evidence and motivation to deploy magnetic separators and detectors wherever possible."



UD

 

[Malo83]

Just installed a GOLD PLUG magnetic plug on my 2017 Buick Regal GS 2.0 this morning during an oil change.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

If you mention magnet, the people will buy it. Seems as if the human brain is tuned into the beneficial use of magnets, whether in the oil pan, oil filter or shoe.

 

[Malo83]

Originally Posted By: Yah-Tah-Hey
If you mention magnet, the people will buy it. Seems as if the human brain is tuned into the beneficial use of magnets, whether in the oil pan, oil filter or shoe.

Copper for the shoes

 

[UncleDave]

So lets see, who's opinion actually has weight.......?

Who publishes machinery lubrication magazine?
Who is highly respected in the lubrication community?
Who has published a multitude of articles on the subject?

With Noria and Jim Fitch we get excellent well written though out articles that demonstrate why magnets make a ton of sense.

Heres an interesting benefit graph worth looking at.



Do the detractors have something (anything) similar to proffer except their unqualified opinions ? - ANYTHING?

...and in the against camp do we get intelligent well written articles we can reference , or anything resembling anything credible as to " why not?

oh I almost forgot about Scotty Kilmer who doesn't understand what particle sizes filters can actually catch.

No we dont get that .....we get dancing bananas and faces. Thats not exactly a hard hitting case against anything.
Note: From the detractors we have nothing - nada zip zilch.
Unless funny faces an dancing beans mean something to anyone here.


Id trust Jim Fitch or anyone from Noria 1000 times more than anyone here with the exception of maybe Dave Newton and or Jim Allen.



UD

 

[goodtimes]

"Magnetic separators" is fine except when there is a bypass valve inside the device. I wouldn't use magnets on a filter with an internal bypass. Just don't know what is coming off the collected iron piles and circulating, only to be caught again and again. Seeing iron piles after cutting a filter open only shows what was collected when the engine was turned off, at that moment and no more. So maybe I should look at the filter magnets as my Chevy Volt has block bypass. I don't see why though a magnetic drain plug isn't about as good without the questions.

 

[UncleDave]

Intersting Noria disagrees and lists a benefit of a magnet as "controlling particles during a bypass event" it would seem they view holding something back vs holding nothing as benefit.

They list 4 benefits of a magnet in the event you are concerned about

Your position seems to be the mags dont hold much to anything until flow stops and that what one sees is the condition at shut off.

My experience is that fine and even moderately sized particles are absolutely held in place over time which is why successive filter cuts over time show the piles growing over time until the OCI take place.

leave it on longer it catches more - not more and more washes off - the piles wouldnt show growth over time if that were the case they would continually be washed off or stay barely visible.


Wouldnt you rather catch something than nothing?


UD

 

[UncleDave]

the held view on the reason the plug inst as effective is that its surface area of collection combined with its comparative lack of flow like a filter will makes it a less effective particle removing device- but still I can see no downside to one. I find they are excellent diagnostic tools at a minimum and that they are effective - others say not so much.

I kind of like the idea that whatever it catches wont be going through my oil pump.

UD

 

[DGXR]

I swear by filter magnets and I will tell you why:
I have a magnetic drain plug in my Tacoma and it always had a small bit of black buildup at every oil change. This happened very consistently for several years. Of course I would clean off the goop before reinstalling the plug.
Then after hearing about filter magnets, I got six neodymium (rare earth) magnets and put them on the filter at the next oil change - four around the perimeter of the canister and two on the bottom of the canister. From that moment forward I have not seen any black goop on the magnetic drain plug, literally not one bit. It's amazing. I don't use the same filter every time but I usually use the same brand and type of oil and run it for about the same service interval. I only pull off the magnets just before removing a used filter. Once I put them on a new filter, I never touch them again until the filter is being removed.
So I swear by filter magnets and have been running them for the last 6 years, on the car and the truck. Obviously you don't have to buy the official "filter mag" design to get the benefit, you can find rare earth magnets online -- very cheap and very strong. The ones I use look like a button, about 1/2 inch diameter and 1/4 inch thick.