Oil filter magnets again

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Hootbro
In the automotive world, Scotty Kilmer is largely a buffoon. 99% of the actual knowledge he knows on cars was from the mid 1970's technology and back when he learned to be mechanic in a shop his dad owned at the time and later he took over and left the shop floor. The electronic age of vehicles from the mid 1980's through today, Scotty takes stabbing guess and make wildly inaccurate statements most time because he is truly pig ignorant of a lot of current tech in vehicle.

Like someone mentioned, his little snippet videos are bombastic entertainment that only attracts the marginally ignorant like himself. His more character than informative.

Does he approve/disapprove oil filter magnets?

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
. I strongly opposed using magnets previously, but now think that a magnet removing particles smaller than what be filtered by the filter is quite possible.


I'd think it'd be inevitable.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Hootbro
In the automotive world, Scotty Kilmer is largely a buffoon. 99% of the actual knowledge he knows on cars was from the mid 1970's technology and back when he learned to be mechanic in a shop his dad owned at the time and later he took over and left the shop floor. The electronic age of vehicles from the mid 1980's through today, Scotty takes stabbing guess and make wildly inaccurate statements most time because he is truly pig ignorant of a lot of current tech in vehicle.

Like someone mentioned, his little snippet videos are bombastic entertainment that only attracts the marginally ignorant like himself. His more character than informative.


Sounds like my kind of show, since I have very little interest in a lot of current tech in vehicles.

 

[Ducked]

I think, on balance, that they'd be a good thing, though I haven't yet used any except a mag drain plug, which is the commonest and least convincing application.

I do wonder if its a great idea to have magnetized wear particles in your oil, and I also wonder if the designs that put a really strong magnet next to the filter bypass valve might interfere with its operation.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Drain plug magnet is good. I wouldn't use a magnet on an oil filter with a bypass built in. Don't know how much iron will stay put on the magnet under varying flow events.



Conversely - if you have no magnet - we know pretty much for sure how much ferrous metal you are going to catch between 2 and say 15 microns.

Zip, and it will be there multiplying all the time going round and round.

Totally agree that not every application will a magnet be euqually meaningful- In a low load low hp / liter HP /CI belt driven cam passenger auto, its probably not very meaningful, but still a good inexpensive diagnostic tool.

In a higher load vehicle with multiple feet of chains and sprockets, motorhomes, boats, trucks that tow at or near the limit,, high performance engine, the removal of iron a full iso code drop is meaningful. In these situations keeping every bit of metal out of that timing chain and away from the load faces pays dividends in the long haul.
Performance DI gas engine are squeezing that oil at near diesel pressures - keeping the face of that load as clean as I can - can only help.

My NA DOHC 32V 5.6 high revving titan will shear out of grade when towing in about 4000 miles, I always find fuzz on the mags after a few hot summer tows - especially the J807 hill that I use several times a summer.

Relatively Low HP stuff like my lexus following the same route with friends it puts much less fuzz out.

UD

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Conversely - if you have no magnet - we know pretty much for sure how much ferrous metal you are going to catch between 2 and say 15 microns.

Zip, and it will be there multiplying all the time going round and round.


A high efficiency filter will catch way more particles in that micron range than a low efficiency filter. It's a curve of efficiency, not a hard cut-off.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Conversely - if you have no magnet - we know pretty much for sure how much ferrous metal you are going to catch between 2 and say 15 microns.

Zip, and it will be there multiplying all the time going round and round.


A high efficiency filter will catch way more particles in that micron range than a low efficiency filter. It's a curve of efficiency, not a hard cut-off.

My oil filters are programmed to adjust to the micron curve you are referring to. Like a smart phone, they are smart filters.

 

[goodtimes]

Not knocking down magnet on filters, but what are answers to these questions.

-magnets have a certain holding ability. What happens when coasting along on a trip at 1800 rpm at light throttle, then going up a mountain pass at 5000 rpm full throttle. Or the next zero degree morning when the engine flare to 1700 rpm ice cold with thick oil. How does anyone know what is kept on the magnet or has left, recirculating until caught again?

-UOA's don't seem to show a lot of iron in well maintained engines in good condition. If there is a ball of iron fuzz on the magnets, which seems like a lot, that large visible iron is coming from where?

-Toyota did this tear down of a million mile truck and didn't find any significant wear. Apparently the filters used were Toyota. So?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Maybe not any "significant" wear, but there certainty had to be some wear.

Anyone got any actual new vs teardown engine component measurements on this 1M mile Toyota? If using FSM spec limits, that can allow for quite a bit of wear. When an engine component is outside the FSM dimensional spec, it's considered "worn out".

 

[UncleDave]

That million mile toyota v6 truck was used as a long haul commuter - not a tow rig. Basically a car with a bed.

How much money did that guy spend on timing belts? 8-10K?

Never saw those part measured like the ecoboost tear downs did. Never saw a leak down, all I know is that it attained high miles.

IF you have so many particles on your magnets that RPM can dislodge them off you have huge problems. Its a hassle to clean the plug tips as the particles want to stay on.

Usually the fuzz comes from the cylinder liners and valve train.



UD

 

[i_hate_autofraud]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
I think, on balance, that they'd be a good thing, though I haven't yet used any except a mag drain plug, which is the commonest and least convincing application.

I do wonder if its a great idea to have magnetized wear particles in your oil, and I also wonder if the designs that put a really strong magnet next to the filter bypass valve might interfere with its operation.


Particles won't be magnetized by simply being caught and stuck to the inside of the filter shell (ie, when using a FilterMag on the
outside). Tiny particles in a relatively thick flowing fluid don't have a chance to pick up a meaningful field of their own.
In any normal healthy engine these particles are from .1 to max 10 microns!

The bypass valve is influenced by a heavy spring and oil pressure, the valve is located along the centreline of the filter and is too
far from magnets on the outside of the filter can.

I looked that these issues too when I started using FilterMags 4 years ago.

 

[goodtimes]

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/project-trucks/1705-million-mile-tundra-the-tear-down/

They did find out of spec wear on parts. The truck was used for heavy hauling. The dyno said reads on par with a new engine. He used dealer service. Didn't know this was really a Toyota vs. the world thread.
Magnets have a certain holding power. If the oil changes flow and viscosity maybe some or all iron will be dislodged, circulated, and caught again. Particles in the pleats are always being pressed into the media by delta p, except when the engine is off.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Not knocking down magnet on filters, but what are answers to these questions.

-magnets have a certain holding ability. What happens when coasting along on a trip at 1800 rpm at light throttle, then going up a mountain pass at 5000 rpm full throttle. Or the next zero degree morning when the engine flare to 1700 rpm ice cold with thick oil. How does anyone know what is kept on the magnet or has left, recirculating until caught again?

-UOA's don't seem to show a lot of iron in well maintained engines in good condition. If there is a ball of iron fuzz on the magnets, which seems like a lot, that large visible iron is coming from where?

-Toyota did this tear down of a million mile truck and didn't find any significant wear. Apparently the filters used were Toyota. So?


And ?
Even though its not possible to happen, what if the holding ability was limited, like you say, it would be recirculated again if the filter cant catch it, the magnet would.
With that said, not possible for the magnet to have limited holding capacity, it the magnet had that much stuff on it to begin with, you have major problems.

Gold Plug magnetic oil pan plugs are so strong, you have to wrestle with it if putting it into a steel oil pan, the plug will pull your hand to the side of the oil pan thread screws and attach itself to the pan, It truly will pick up a adjustable wrench and hold it, its not going to lose anything in the oil.

Your post about Toyota, well, Toyota also feels you can use any oil on the market as long as it meets the API. Doesnt matter if its Super Tech, Penzoil or Mobile1, just sounds more important to me to remove at no cost any hard metals we can from the oil. )

Harely Davidson uses them in the pan, Some Subaru in the pan, Mercury Marine as well as many applications where an oil filter is not practical, such as differentials etc. So bottom line they pull material out, will it matter? Maybe not any more then using the cheapest oil filter known to mankind vs a well made filter.
The only thing is with a magnet, its a one time cost vs a filter, every oil change.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/project-trucks/1705-million-mile-tundra-the-tear-down/

They did find out of spec wear on parts. The truck was used for heavy hauling. The dyno said reads on par with a new engine. He used dealer service. Didn't know this was really a Toyota vs. the world thread.
Magnets have a certain holding power. If the oil changes flow and viscosity maybe some or all iron will be dislodged, circulated, and caught again. Particles in the pleats are always being pressed into the media by delta p, except when the engine is off.


Hmm this article say the guy basically just commuted in it and it had a V6 not a V8. They reclassified it was a 6, but your article link shows an 8.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-toyota-truck-looks-like-after-1-000-000-mi-1776141464

Just trying to figure out what it is and what they did to it. Diff sources dont even agree on what engine that was in it, and what he did with it - according to the tt article it hauled between 15 and 2700 lb occasionally as cargo - thats a lot of cargo on the suspension for sure but still not a lot of overall weight.

For sure it wasnt towing 5-7K like a big half ton would tow a boat for this kind of miles and that I see all the time. The engine shops in havasu have million mile trucks driving back and forth to LA all week long picking up and dropping off work.

If he changed belts at 100K and put 10 timing belts and water pumps in it - is a million impressive or not - as he had to spend in maintenance more than what a new engine would cost?

all good discussion.

UD

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/project-trucks/1705-million-mile-tundra-the-tear-down/

They did find out of spec wear on parts. The truck was used for heavy hauling. The dyno said reads on par with a new engine. He used dealer service. Didn't know this was really a Toyota vs. the world thread.
Magnets have a certain holding power. If the oil changes flow and viscosity maybe some or all iron will be dislodged, circulated, and caught again. Particles in the pleats are always being pressed into the media by delta p, except when the engine is off.


Hmm this article say the guy basically just commuted in it and it had a V6 not a V8.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-toyota-truck-looks-like-after-1-000-000-mi-1776141464

Just trying to figure out what it is and what they did to it.

UD


The article I showed is newer, after the teardown, and the pics are by Toyota. In one there is the engine. I don't know what it is but it looks like an 8.
The question I asked goes unanswered. If a filter has dirty side bypass I don't see why a magnet will hold forever the particles it does catch, and if not, they could go through the bypass into the main bearings. Particles can be wiped off magnets fairly easily with side pressures. A magnet has a fixed power, particles aren't welded to them. So I guess that's try number four at an answer to the question. Magnet drain plugs are not in a high pressure flow stream, but the flow stream inside an oil filter is strong. I wouldn't use magnets on a dome end or dirty side bypass filter unless I knew what was going on inside.

 

[UncleDave]

One article swearing reiterates its a 6 the other an 8.

How long is "forerever" 10K 20K? Any good magnet will hold 100% of normal debris that comes into contact with the flux.

You cannot swipe the debris off with your finger - you can stack pounds of matter on these magnets and it wont come off.

How many 2-10-15 micron particles will you filter hold? You dont answer that question either but we all know it. ALMOST None.

You are worried about a scenario one can't quantify- Im worried about what I can quantify.


UD

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
One article swearing reiterates its a 6 the other an 8.

How long is "forerever" 10K 20K? Any good magnet will hold 100% of normal debris that comes into contact with the flux.

You cannot swipe the debris off with your finger - you can stack pounds of matter on these magnets and it wont come off.

How many 2-10-15 micron particles will you filter hold? You dont answer that question either but we all know it. ALMOST None.

You are worried about a scenario one can't quantify- Im worried about what I can quantify.


UD




Your article seems to be wrong info on the engine, and the truck use. There is a picture of it in the later article, and they talk about it. Pictures don't lie.

I am not worried about anything related to an oil filter. Fingers are not in an oil filter, fast moving oil is. A magnet happily gathering iron fuzz when times are easy, may lose it's gathered iron fuzz when the engine is flared up cold or wot after idle. The can thickness already weakens a magnet, and as fuzz is added it is held rapidly less.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
A magnet happily gathering iron fuzz when times are easy, may lose it's gathered iron fuzz when the engine is flared up cold or wot after idle.

Okay but that fuzz would still be circulating in the oil anyway assuming it wasn't trapped by the filter. Why not trap some of it with the magnet instead of just letting it all circulate and never be trapped?

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
A magnet happily gathering iron fuzz when times are easy, may lose it's gathered iron fuzz when the engine is flared up cold or wot after idle.

Okay but that fuzz would still be circulating in the oil anyway assuming it wasn't trapped by the filter. Why not trap some of it with the magnet instead of just letting it all circulate and never be trapped?


Because a magnet catches big fuzz too, which would have been better trapped in the oil filter media instead of clinging to the side of smooth steel, right in the oil flow path. No delta p on that slippery slope. And a wad of fuzz all at once released is worse than a particle here and there.

Maybe a low tech test could be to open a filter can and flatten the steel, put the magnet on the steel and gather some iron from the surrounding dirt. Dirt always seems to have iron in it. As we know from childhood playing with magnets. Take a garden hose nozzle and see if the fuzz can be blasted off.

 

[Dyusik]

A magnet mounted on the drain plug sees what kind of "flow" exactly? Oil trickles/dumps into the oil pan onto the surface of the oil. The only flow path to speak of is the pickup tube ducking oil up. We are not talking about an in line filter. So you are right, there is no delta pressure. Even if you were to flash heat the magnet to 900 degrees and it suddenly dumps a large amount of debris, it will be suspended shortly in a large amount of oil, and majority will settle out of suspension, namely the large chunks. Have no fear.