oh and i did some further digging last night i had no idea that this was such a long lived topic of debate
Oil filter flow
- Thread starter thieu
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
I do, at times, feel like a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.
Hey, wait a durn minute there.. I been working in Missouri for 33 years, even lived here for a spell in my younger days. We-uns do call it "The Show Me State", but I'm figurin'us backwoods country bumkin's oughta take what Gary says as gospel. It is on the innernet, and just as shorly as Miss Belle makes the finest sweet tea this side of the big muddy, Gary ain't never steered a feller wrong. By the way, I typed real slow so that you-uns city slickers wouldn't have no trouble readin' it now. Now y'all may be thinkin', "Hey this here fellers making fun a me." Nope, fun's already made... we-uns just laughin'...
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
No. Nothing that I say is cast in stone. I'm always open to supported opposing points of view. I'd love the education. I came here with nothing ..and have gained much. Don't think that I just pulled this magic out of my behind. I had lots of coaching from members that don't post here anymore. 427Z06 was a very CRITICAL back channel co-author to much of my searching/testing ..as was XS650 ..both highly educated engineers ..and not shy about spanking you if you over extended yourself. If I didn't qualify every statement, they were on me like stink on _____. Speculation had to be stated as such. You'll often see me put (in an otherwise normal situation) or (all things being equal) or (assuming you don't have large oil passages that don't cache any oil) ..stuff like that. All those instances that are outside of my factual observation. I also must be able to "reason" what I say. That is, I typically will give the pathway in how I came to my conclusion. There's some methodology to it ..as mad as it may be. It's not "all inclusive" ..but, again, I make every attempt at qualifying what I say.
..but ..if you can produce actual documented tests that show otherwise, I'd really like to see it.
..and by all means ...enjoy yourself ..the laugh is on me
..but ..if you can produce actual documented tests that show otherwise, I'd really like to see it.
..and by all means ...enjoy yourself ..the laugh is on me
I believe what Gary and PeteC said. Yet it is interesting the filter companies compound this by providing flow rates for their filters in varying amounts of gallons per minute. I suppose they are testing these as maximum flow rates apart from the restriction of the engine, that is, do they just pump oil in and keep increasing the pressure and measure the flow until it maxes out? And what is the purpose of the flow rate of a filter? Seems more useful as a measure of porosity in that a high flow filter would have more open media, which would not trap smaller particles as efficiently as a lower flow filter. So maybe we should purposefully go for lower flow rated filters?
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
TallPaul,
Yes, filter company give multiple testing spec's.
On my beat up Greshen
TWA Beta 10=2
TWA Btea 20=20
TWA Beta 22=75
Capacity 8 gms Typical
Delta P @ 10gpm (with) 150 SSU= 4 PSID
Suppose it said 10 PSID? Does that mean in all instances that there will be 10 PSID using a 150 SSU fluid flowing @ 10gpm? Suppose it's running through a ZERO pressure return line? There it works. Suppose it's pumping through a .0135 orifice? Suppose it's a tight engine with a low volume oil pump ..or a loose one with a low volume oil pump
Those things will not alter the flow ..but they will alter how much back pressure is seen by the filter, altering it's "proportion" of total pressure drop in a fluid circuit.
These are static spec's that can't be taken out of context and templated upon how they will appear "in line".
They work for comparison purposes only.
In the aforementioned Greshen, Suppose I put it under its max recommended operating pressure, and put a choke on the outlet that reduces the flow to 10gpm with a 150 SSU fluid? Do you think that you would still see 4 PSID??
These are not easy things to envision.
Take your old DC electricity test from 4th grade. You apply your 3V dry cell and find that the bulb drops 3v. Now evolve that to putting two bulbs in series ..just like they did in the class room and they show us that they both drop 1.5V ..and add up to the 3V supply.
Now let's alter the test. Make the second bulb 10X the resistance of the original bulb. NOW you see that our original bulb drops 1/10th the original (original reading with 3V applied) voltage ..and the other bulb drops 10X what the lower resistance bulb.
How can this be? The first bulb dropped 3V in the first test??
So, let's say that we had an ammeter installed in line. When we did our single bulb test, we found that THIS bulb had 1 amp at 3V applied pressure. Now we take our 10X bulb and CRANK UP the voltage until we, once again ..get our 1 amp of flow. LOOK!! LOOK! the bulb still drops the same 3volts. I guess I was wrong ...but now our applied voltage is 33VDC ...so I guess I was right. If we applied 33VDC to the original bulb by itself ..we'd no have 11 amps ..not the original 1 amp that (would give us if viewed from current applied/consumed) produced 3VDC.
This is ESSENTIALLY what occurs. There are minor drifts off of that basic rule (inherent pump losses, viscosity to a very limited degree) etc.)..but that's essentially it in a nutshell WHENEVER the flow is at unity with what the pump is producing in current and what the engine is receiving in current. That is, a series circuit (from the above and below media/filter view). Now when the relief circuit of the oil pump is open that is no longer the case. You DON'T have continuity in your flow ..some of it can go somewhere else.
Yes, filter company give multiple testing spec's.
On my beat up Greshen
TWA Beta 10=2
TWA Btea 20=20
TWA Beta 22=75
Capacity 8 gms Typical
Delta P @ 10gpm (with) 150 SSU= 4 PSID
Suppose it said 10 PSID? Does that mean in all instances that there will be 10 PSID using a 150 SSU fluid flowing @ 10gpm? Suppose it's running through a ZERO pressure return line? There it works. Suppose it's pumping through a .0135 orifice? Suppose it's a tight engine with a low volume oil pump ..or a loose one with a low volume oil pump
These are static spec's that can't be taken out of context and templated upon how they will appear "in line".
They work for comparison purposes only.
In the aforementioned Greshen, Suppose I put it under its max recommended operating pressure, and put a choke on the outlet that reduces the flow to 10gpm with a 150 SSU fluid? Do you think that you would still see 4 PSID??
These are not easy things to envision.
Take your old DC electricity test from 4th grade. You apply your 3V dry cell and find that the bulb drops 3v. Now evolve that to putting two bulbs in series ..just like they did in the class room and they show us that they both drop 1.5V ..and add up to the 3V supply.
Now let's alter the test. Make the second bulb 10X the resistance of the original bulb. NOW you see that our original bulb drops 1/10th the original (original reading with 3V applied) voltage ..and the other bulb drops 10X what the lower resistance bulb.
How can this be? The first bulb dropped 3V in the first test??
So, let's say that we had an ammeter installed in line. When we did our single bulb test, we found that THIS bulb had 1 amp at 3V applied pressure. Now we take our 10X bulb and CRANK UP the voltage until we, once again ..get our 1 amp of flow. LOOK!! LOOK! the bulb still drops the same 3volts. I guess I was wrong ...but now our applied voltage is 33VDC ...so I guess I was right. If we applied 33VDC to the original bulb by itself ..we'd no have 11 amps ..not the original 1 amp that (would give us if viewed from current applied/consumed) produced 3VDC.
This is ESSENTIALLY what occurs. There are minor drifts off of that basic rule (inherent pump losses, viscosity to a very limited degree) etc.)..but that's essentially it in a nutshell WHENEVER the flow is at unity with what the pump is producing in current and what the engine is receiving in current. That is, a series circuit (from the above and below media/filter view). Now when the relief circuit of the oil pump is open that is no longer the case. You DON'T have continuity in your flow ..some of it can go somewhere else.
Last edited:
Quote:
No one wants to believe me, Pete.
This is excellent stuff, Gary & Pete! I believe.
From what I understand (from this thread and others I've read here over the years), the chief advantage of a filter with more media surface area (over one with less) is slower oil velocity through the media, resulting in more efficient filtering (assuming all else is equal).
A bigger filter will not yield more oil volume flow through the engine. It may yield more efficient filtering and more capacity for dirt-holding than a smaller filter.
Excellent thread; thieu, you're doing great.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Good to see you still lurking, Big O Dave
Now we are getting close for slugs like me on this oil flow thing. All someone has to do is reconcile this:
"From what I understand (from this thread and others I've read here over the years), the chief advantage of a filter with more media surface area (over one with less) is slower oil velocity through the media, resulting in more efficient filtering (assuming all else is equal)."
with this:
Purolator Pure One: "provide more filter surface area to prevent oil restriction..."
and then I can rest easy. Thanks, in advance.
"From what I understand (from this thread and others I've read here over the years), the chief advantage of a filter with more media surface area (over one with less) is slower oil velocity through the media, resulting in more efficient filtering (assuming all else is equal)."
with this:
Purolator Pure One: "provide more filter surface area to prevent oil restriction..."
and then I can rest easy. Thanks, in advance.
I don't know who wrote the Purolator Pure One quote, and the context in which it was written, but these two statements are not irreconcilable.
What Pete wrote above is true: no off the shelf oil filter is more restrictive than the engine's oil galleries to which it is attached, provided that the oil filter is correct for the application. This means that the filter manufacturer is making it for that application, and not that it simply fits on the filter adapter.
"Providing more filter surface" does prevent restriction - as the filter loads up with debris. Also, if the oil is very viscous, such as when cold, having more filtering surface will allow more oil to pass through the filtering media without causing the filter's bypass valve to open.
To me, this is no contradiction here at all, but maybe I am not understanding your question.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Keep in mind that you hear that "90% of all wear occurs at start up" for many oil promotional statements too. What they don't tell you is that start up is anything that's not "steady state".
Any larger surface area is going to be less effected by loading assuming that it's equal to a smaller surface area in filtration efficiency (and assuming that it's subjected to the same service). No brainer there. That still doesn't mean that this loading is going to have any impact on conditions on either side of the filter. We just don't have too dirty an mess to handle anymore.
Pete will tell you (and he should surely know) that they may use different medias in smaller filters to attain the efficiency that the OEM spec demands.
The main ball to keep your eye on is that the filter ..in any NORMAL situation that almost EVERY consumer will encounter is a non-factor in terms of restrictions and/or resistance to flow. You "MAY" get a blip at start up ...but it has MUCH MORE to do with your engine than it does with the filter ..or what can be altered with different filter selection. This assumes that you have a typically designed engine with a viable oil pump that's not experiencing "losses" to some inordinate level.
If you're below your oil pump's relief level ...it doesn't matter what the oil flow "sees" (eyelet of a needle - whatever) it's going to flow at the rate that the pump dictates.
So, my friends ...no pump relief ...no loss in flow. Can't happen. Can we agree on that?
Now for bypass usage? Those with more robust ADBVs have the filter fully enveloped ..kinda like a kinetic action (if you can adapt the reasoning). Then we're down to viscosity ..and there, if it's high ..you've got a sorta "inertia" thing going on where the pump can't accelerate the mass without hitting its relief limit. Sorta like the old steam locomotives spinning their wheels to get the train moving ..or maybe doing a burn out. Eventually the mass being moved and the mover hook up in agreement of applied power and realized power.
I want to go on ..but my brain is running low on resources to articulate in a sensible manner. Time for bed.
Any larger surface area is going to be less effected by loading assuming that it's equal to a smaller surface area in filtration efficiency (and assuming that it's subjected to the same service). No brainer there. That still doesn't mean that this loading is going to have any impact on conditions on either side of the filter. We just don't have too dirty an mess to handle anymore.
Pete will tell you (and he should surely know) that they may use different medias in smaller filters to attain the efficiency that the OEM spec demands.
The main ball to keep your eye on is that the filter ..in any NORMAL situation that almost EVERY consumer will encounter is a non-factor in terms of restrictions and/or resistance to flow. You "MAY" get a blip at start up ...but it has MUCH MORE to do with your engine than it does with the filter ..or what can be altered with different filter selection. This assumes that you have a typically designed engine with a viable oil pump that's not experiencing "losses" to some inordinate level.
If you're below your oil pump's relief level ...it doesn't matter what the oil flow "sees" (eyelet of a needle - whatever) it's going to flow at the rate that the pump dictates.
So, my friends ...no pump relief ...no loss in flow. Can't happen. Can we agree on that?
Now for bypass usage? Those with more robust ADBVs have the filter fully enveloped ..kinda like a kinetic action (if you can adapt the reasoning). Then we're down to viscosity ..and there, if it's high ..you've got a sorta "inertia" thing going on where the pump can't accelerate the mass without hitting its relief limit. Sorta like the old steam locomotives spinning their wheels to get the train moving ..or maybe doing a burn out. Eventually the mass being moved and the mover hook up in agreement of applied power and realized power.
I want to go on ..but my brain is running low on resources to articulate in a sensible manner. Time for bed.
Gracias, LOL! I didn't understand my own question! This is the reply I got from Todd Vick, Purolator Engineering:
"The surface area comment is referencing filter life. With a high efficiency media - restriction is a concern. By maximizing pleat count - we are maximizing filter life as it accumulates debris." A little different twist, but seems to agree with above.
The ubiquitous Gary Allan sure can write and explain! Much appreciated.
"The surface area comment is referencing filter life. With a high efficiency media - restriction is a concern. By maximizing pleat count - we are maximizing filter life as it accumulates debris." A little different twist, but seems to agree with above.
The ubiquitous Gary Allan sure can write and explain! Much appreciated.
Last edited:
"I believe what Gary and PeteC said."
Wow..I'm from Arkansas..what did they say??? Can I still use a MC filter in my Ferd??
Wow..I'm from Arkansas..what did they say??? Can I still use a MC filter in my Ferd??
- Status
