Oil filter flow

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I know different sized filters will flow different amounts. has anyone taken one size of filters from different brands and done flow comparisons? I've searched for some time and have only found mentions of "greases study" but cannot find it.

Thanks for your time guys
thieu
 
Flow 101
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5gpm through a 2" pipe
5gpm through a 1" pipe

Which one flowed more?
 
thieu

what you're asking/saying is that different medias will flow at different rates at a given pressure in bench testing (Grease's study). Larger filters will more easily pass fluid than smaller filters (all things being otherwise equal) ..but neither usually adds up to too much of a difference in the engine. The filter is a much larger chamber than either the oil inlet or oil outlet. The oil crawls through a filter. Now it may scream through the pores of a given media over another ..but that difficulty or ease is nothing compared to what the engine presents as a choke.

So, one media over another may flow "easier" ..but in any normalized non-transitional state ..there's no such thing as a high or low flow filter.
 
Thanks for the response and the welcome

So just to be clear, until a filter gets clogged from use the engine represents a far greater restriction to oil flow than the filter itself.
If that is the case than why the need to a bypass valve/system? It the engine represents a greater restriction than the filter wouldn’t the resulting pressure drop across the filter be minimal? Or is the bypass system usually only engaged occasionally towards the end of the life of the filter?
The reason for the further question is that I have seen posted / noted that “X” filter is constantly in bypass on “Y” car even when new, and that it’s usually attributed to the restriction of the filtration media itself. Are these abnormality’s? I know from reading that bob holds that the Mobil 1 filter is quite restrictive.
Thanks again
Thieu

Oh and just because emoticons are fun
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Quote:


So just to be clear, until a filter gets clogged from use the engine represents a far greater restriction to oil flow than the filter itself.




Well, no. The engine will always be the greatest resistance to flow that the oil will see ..but this assumes that flow is "fully enveloped/developed". There's more to it, surely.


Quote:


The reason for the further question is that I have seen posted / noted that “X” filter is constantly in bypass on “Y” car even when new, and that it’s usually attributed to the restriction of the filtration media itself.




First I would challenge the source for proof of this. Without differential gauges (or upstream and downstream gauges to compare) and a remote mount, I'd need to get my remote viewing glasses out of mothballs.

There are conditions where a filter can be under constant elevated differential. If you're running an oil pump that produces too high a volume, with too low a pressure limit, you can be constantly in relief ..or in relief above a certain RPM (assume, for the moment a fully warmed up engine). Once in relief, you no longer have unity between the pump output and the flow to the engine. The filter will be the point that will see this flow differential ..and therefore will express it in pressure differential. The flow going to the engine will produce whatever is produced by that volume of oil moving at that rate at that viscosity. The pump will be producing a higher flow at a constant pressure (the relief limit). The filter will express/experience the difference between FULL flow at that supply pressure and REALIZED flow at that supply pressure.

Anyone in constant bypass has too high a pump volume or is using too high a viscosity oil at that pump volume. I'd still need to find out how they determined this.

Take my wife's jeep 4.0 for example. Pre-BITOG I was not happy with the stock oil pressure. It peaked cold @ 42lb ..going down the road warm was about 24lbs ..and warm idle was about 12-13lbs. So, I found a high volume pump and had it installed. Now it was 58lbs cold ..and any other time off of idle with 30 or 40 weight synthetic oils. Now, in this situation I've got (effectively) a fixed supply pressure with a variable flow due to viscosity. I cannot fit the total pump output through the engine at that viscosity. Since I'm always in relief, I'm never going to have unity between what the pump is producing and what the engine is receiving. I will always have a variable differential across the filter. More when the viscosity is high ...less when the viscosity is lower. It may or may not been enough of a divergence to open the bypass valve ..and is totally exclusive to differentials caused by loading.

With 5w-20 in the sump (which may be totally unsuitable for the engine) I can fit the full oil pump output through the engine within the pressure confines of the relief limit. Now, since the flow from the oil pump and the flow to the engine are at unity ..the differential across the filter is probably measurable in inches of water column (aside from any incidental loading).


The hard time that you're having here is multidimensional. First, we all view the world of flow in terms of pressures and resistance. We aren't at all accustom to having flow and resistance dictating the pressure. The added bonus here is that you have to switch hit this view depending on whether or not you're in oil pump relief. But that's not all (now how much would you pay?
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). There's a chicken and egg component too ..that may or may not be valid in any given instance.
 
ah i had completely ignored the fact that there is a pump bypass as well.

so let me take another stab at this
at a given viscosity and oil pressure the oil filter will flow 5 GPM but the engine will only allow say 4 GPM so the resultant pressure across the filter would be negligible at best since the engine is a higher source of resistance. As the rpms climb and the flow produced by our oil pump increases so does the pressure in the entire system increase again the diff across the filter being negligible since the engine constricts flow to a greater extent. At a certain point as our rpms increase the pressure in the oil system will increase until at a certain point (different for each car) the oil pumps bypass will kick in and the pressure will level off. The filters bypass is just there to prevent the possibility of implosion of the filter due to neglect/odd freaky occurrences.

Thanks Gary for the time you spent with your reply’s it must have taken some time to type all that out
Thieu
 
thieu - we'll get there, pal
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5 and 5 and you've got it. 5 and 4 means that a gallon is going somewhere else ..but at the peak pressure. The engine is only seeing 4 and will only develop 4/5 of the "back pressure" that it would have with 5. One side of the filter is seeing peak pressure ..the other side is seeing what the engine develops at the lower flow. It "sees" the differential of those two pressures. When it's passing all of the oil that is produced at a given pressure ..and the engine is seeing all of that flow ..then there will be no flow differential of substance ..and there will be no pressure differential of substance.
 
Maybe someone can answer this for me. Thieu referenced the restrictive flow of Mobil 1 filters and I've seen this numerous times from people saying they don't like this particular filter because it is so restrictive.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but have there been tests to show how restrictive this filter is or is this one of those deals where everyone assumes this filter isn't conducive to proper flow because the "inlet holes are smaller".
 
Any off the shelf automotive oil filter WILL NOT restrict the flow of oil out of the oil pump to the engine under normal operating conditions and applications. Fact not fiction.
 
Gary, I believe in you. It just seems to be a common perpetuated myth that M1 filters are choking people's engines from getting the proper lubrication. I guess this is just a case of one person screaming the sky is falling and the rest believing him.

handyman
Group II Member

Re: Mobil 1 rebate alert !!!! [Re: theedge67]
#924119 - 06/28/07 03:52 PM

I've tried the M1 filter before and thought that they were too restrictive. I like filters with better oil flow.

DINO_NO
Group II Member
Re: Mobil 1 rebate alert !!!! [Re: ericthepig]
#924145 - 06/28/07 04:24 PM

mased on BOBISTHEOILGUY's personal studies

He ran fram (high flow) with a oil and did a OUA
He ran mobil (ristricted) with same oil and did OUA
results showed fram showed lower wear numbers

Its more into detail, but those are the basics
 
The thought did cross my mind to drill out the inlet holes of an M1 filter, but how do you keep the metal fragments from contaminating the filter? Maybe if I had a special drill with a vacuum hose attachment.
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Spray nozzle have fixed GPM. Say you need 30 PSI minimal but even if you increase it to 50 PSI, the output will still be the same as what it's spec for. Also the same as using a 1 inch hose or 2 inch hose, the nozzles volume output is spec as followed.

You have different sizes 3 GPM - 6 GPM.

Say a filter's construction is spec for 5 GPM. Say the Fram filter is also constructed the same as the Mobil filter, same volume out flow and so on...they both specs for 5 GPM say if there was no media, just the filter itself. The only way the filter will not pump out 5 GPM is the media is restricting the volume needed to achieve 5 GPM.

If the bypass is spec for 3 GPM, that is the max it will flow. Even with higher pressure, the bypass can only flow at 3 GPM as with the spec spray nozzle.
 
Like I've said many times before....
As for small holes, nothing to worry about. Add up the total open area of the inlet holes and compare that total open area to the total open area of the hole in the mounting stud on the engine (not the filter outlet hole) and let us know which is bigger. My money is on the total area of the filter inlet holes.
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Everybody!!! Regardless of how small those holes look ...the engine's resistance makes it look MUCH smaller than what it (the filter, it's inlet holes, outlet stud) looks like to the oil flow. It DEVELOPS (it doesn't come out of your behind) the MOST BACK PRESSURE.

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The limit on this engine's pump is 81psi. Now DOUBLE OR TRIPLE OR QUADRUPLE the amount that the filter is developing in PSID.

What's it add up to compared to the pressure developed BELOW THE FILTER?? Not squat. Therefore, any notions that holes, media, whatnot in a fully functional and sound engine "restricting" flow is just not an issue. Now if you've got a null and void oil pump that leaks way too much ...etc..etc. Then it may add up to something. Otherwise it's just not happening.

Oh ..maybe if you have a hi-per setup that has really high volume and a tremendous rpm capability and transitions in a radical manner ..but you're sorta out of the realm of "common" there. Anyone flowing up to 9 gpm should be fine. That's a whole lot of oil flow.
 
Quote:


Gary, I believe in you. It just seems to be a common perpetuated myth that M1 filters are choking people's engines from getting the proper lubrication. I guess this is just a case of one person screaming the sky is falling and the rest believing him.





It's hard to shake some concepts once they're set in your head. We once saw a swallow ..and summer came ..and that somehow equates to whenever we see a swallow ..summer is surely around the corner. Many have a decent sense of cause and effect in forming their opinions ..but they don't challenge themselves to some kind of "disproving" test to assure validity.

Even if the poster(s) were correct, they didn't figure out "why" the filter, which should normally have only beneficial impact on UOA (assuming it's a finer filter), resulted in a less favorable reading. It may have been other factors that were totally detached from the filter all together.

It's sorta like when your boss asks you if you did anything different when something went wrong. Whatever it is that you did different, even if it was sneezing in a hallway 100 yds. away, ..."That's IT!!".


Now this doesn't mean that a filter can't alter apparent symptoms. For example one poster was experiencing some HLA noise on startup. He switched from a PureOne to a PP and the noise stopped. No two ways about it, the filter was being restrictive. This leads to the notion that a filter typically can alter flow. What isn't realized or expressed, is that the oil pump had 200k on it and was (probably) barely keeping the oil light out at hot idle due to internal leakage or a scored relief bore.

So, in all fairness, it's not an impossibility, but it's so highly unlikely and would surely require some extreme qualification that would tend to exclude it from some type of "rule". That is, it would be an exceptional occurrence ..and there are always exceptions. Jane may actually put the car in reverse just when you drop your remote lock and crush it ..and it may just happen to be a Sunday when the dealer is closed ..and the credit card company put a lock on your credit card because you didn't use it for 6 months and Jane, unbeknown to you, had mistakenly pulled that card out when shopping the previous day and made multiple purchases all on the same day and you missed the automated call from the credit card center's fraud protection dept....etc..etc...etc.

With that data, on could conclude that you're wife is a 5th column movement and is out to sabotage you and ruin your life ...

Now wait a minute!! I guess I should use a better example
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What I meant is the engine will only allow 4 gpm through @ at certain pressure and rpm and if the filter flow rate is higher in those same conditions there would be negligible pressure drop across the filter. I did not mean that 5 gpm was going across the filter. If 4 gpm is all the engine will allow to pass that is all that is going to pass. Unless we enter bypass that is. LOL so much passing.
Another way to look at my example was that I was looking at the engine and filter in isolation.
Thanks for your guys help I probably could have figured it out if I had sat down and looked at the whole system, but sounding boards make life so much easier.

Oh and I believe you GARY!! LOL arn’t forums fun
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