Oil Filter Field Retrieval Samples for Analysis

[FetchFar]

While the Purolator Classic oil filter tear issue continues, I have been emailing a Purolator rep, and he claims they do not routinely simply gather used oil filters to cut open.

Since BITOG members cut open filters, and cutting them open reveals failures, I don't see why a big company doesn't do this on a regular basis to help them form a view of failure rates in the real world. (In fact, the Purolator rep asked ME if I knew of any company that does this.)

Do any BITOG readers know of any mass-produced products where the maker routinely gathers a sample of real-world spent products to see how they are holding up?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Time to start a new company service.

Did the Purolator rep say anything else about the media tearing issue?

 

[FetchFar]

Certainly you could say "Well, the consumer abused this one, so it doesn't count." With oil filters, seems like the only abuse is leaving it in too long (past a year or 15,000 miles maybe).

Seems like time/mileage is the only relevant thing to know. Otherwise, the really is no way to abuse an oil filter.

 

[FetchFar]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Time to start a new company service.

Did the Purolator rep say anything else about the media tearing issue?


One excerpt from a Purolator representative email yesterday:

"We have considered random sampling however there are countless consumer unique factors that must be known and accounted for to provide a statistically viable result. We are proposing a field exchange program since our in house testing using clean oil has failed to duplicate any of the claims. Members in the proposed program get a filter, monitor their usage and send it back to us for pressure, restriction and impulse tests before we cut it open. We can then tell the effective performance of the filter before conducting the destructive internal inspection. Of course this would have to be limited to various locations around the country and to a limited number of participants who we can expect to provide meticulous records. You can imagine the logistics of such an endeavor.

For your knowledge, we routinely remove from production and test filter using industry typical and OE standardized tests. We recently selected one of the industries strictest standards as an required internal test. In many cases, this means cycling a filter up to and over 60,000 times in pressure and oil temperatures to check for leaking and bypass readings. This is of course a lab test and cannot account for other external factors. We can only test using the same or better methods and standard as the rest of the filter community.

We are requesting that even items that have be cut open are returned to our lab for analysis. There are still some examinations possible that can help us make determinations on the claims. The more concrete data we have the, the better our analysis. I understand a retrieval kit has gone out to at least one customer from the forum."

 

[FetchFar]

To me, there are really two things here:

1. Knowing the size of the problem, what percentage in the world have tears in them, (to a statistical uncertainty range used in random sampling surveys). You only need 100 random samples to draw a decent view.

2. Forensic analysis on some torn ones you find.

They are really two separate issues.

 

[FetchFar]

The Purolator rep is over-thinking the random sampling. You could just state to your Purolator CEO that, say, "1% of Purolator Classics have tears in them. Period. Simple fact."

The CEO might reply "Thats acceptable failure. Do nothing."

Now I happen to think the percentage is much higher, indicating major flaws in Purolator quality control, measurements, testing, and sampling methods.

 

[earlyre]

Originally Posted By: FetchFar

Since BITOG members cut open filters, and cutting them open reveals failures, I don't see why a big company doesn't do this on a regular basis to help them form a view of failure rates in the real world. (In fact, the Purolator rep asked ME if I knew of any company that does this.)

Do any BITOG readers know of any mass-produced products where the maker routinely gathers a sample of real-world spent products to see how they are holding up?


well, HP includes a prepaid ups shipping label in all their Toner cartridges for "recycling" Purposes.(been a while since i bought an hp inkjet Cartridge, but i know the Epson Coupon Printers on our Check lanes @ work, come with a prepaid shipping envelope in the box to be sent back in for "recycling" as well

not sure if they are just inspecting/refurbishing and refilling the old ones, or grinding them up to supply raw materials to make new ones....

 

[michaelluscher]

I don't bother giving them back to the manufacturer FOR FREE! after the ridiculous scamming that goes on with home inkjet printers. HP and Epson specifically!

.......Go to Staples, you can recycle up to 10 empty's a month, they give you $2 back towards each in a coupon they mail you every quarter
I dislike Staples, but if the $$ works out in my favor, I'll do it

 

[Cardenio327]

Band A.G. did a campaign to collect tire remnants from Interstate highways before they merged with Bridgestone. They analyzed the remnants to determine brand, whether they had been retreaded or not, who retreaded them if so, and what the cause of tire failure was.

They concluded that more virgin tires suffer catastrophic failure than retreaded tires, but the outcome of their study may have been biased by the fact that they are the largest tire retreader in the world.

 

[earlyre]

Originally Posted By: michaelluscher
I don't bother giving them back to the manufacturer FOR FREE! after the ridiculous scamming that goes on with home inkjet printers. HP and Epson specifically!

.......Go to Staples, you can recycle up to 10 empty's a month, they give you $2 back towards each in a coupon they mail you every quarter
I dislike Staples, but if the $$ works out in my favor, I'll do it


well that won't work for me since there isn't a staples within 50 mi of me
also, that has nothing to do do with the OP's question regarding a company collecting their used mass produced Product for quality control purposes. (which while the 2 examples i gave are ostensibly for "Recycling" they could easily be testing some of them as well..)

 

[FetchFar]

I did find a technical paper product field end-user sampling ...Link Click Here... . A quote from the paper.

"Therefore the importance of continuous field product observation and field data analysis is an important way for analyzing product reliability in the use phase."

Does anybody else find it strange that Purolator has been doing this since 1923 and this Purolator rep claims they have not sampled from the field?

 

[ZeeOSix]

I think the rash of tears we saw here lately could be caused by their use during the winter months. If Purolator does test some new filters in-house at different temperatures, then I wonder is they are simulating the filter being used in very cold climates when the oil would be thick. That condition puts the most stress on the pleats due to the large delta-p across the media.

If the pleat spacing, and the media material can't take that added stress from the flow of oil in cold climates, that could be the combination that is causing media tearing. If this is true, they should be able to replicate the conditions to cause tearing.

If you are having a back and forth with the Purolator rep with emails, you might mention that testing condition, or link this thread to him.

 

[FetchFar]

ZeeOSix, BTW, I'm surprised the Purolator guy keeps emailing me back! ... They do run a lot of scenarios on brand new samples off the factory floor, tough tests even. I don't think thats their problem. I think its just a failure to grab a few actual filters out there in the real world. He has no explanation as to why they don't already do that. A no-brainer to me.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: FetchFar
ZeeOSix, BTW, I'm surprised the Purolator guy keeps emailing me back! ... They do run a lot of scenarios on brand new samples off the factory floor, tough tests even. I don't think thats their problem. I think its just a failure to grab a few actual filters out there in the real world. He has no explanation as to why they don't already do that. A no-brainer to me.


If they are not simulating a filter being used on a car in Montana in -20 deg F climate with 5w30 flowing through it at 5 GPM then they are not testing for worse case scenarios where the most delta-p force/stress is incurred on the media.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I think the rash of tears we saw here lately could be caused by their use during the winter months.

That's possible. I assume they understand that some vehicles do specify a thicker oil and that some are in very cold areas. Even with the bypass taken into consideration, the differential could be high.

Look at something like the Bosch 3300 (or any of the other Purolator equivalents for my G). That filter is also specified for a great deal of outdoor power equipment. Not everyone is going to be using 5w-20 or 5w30 or 5w-40 in a heated garage. There will be plenty of examples of OPE using monogrades and 15w40 and 20w-50, and unsuitable choices for cold weather.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: FetchFar
While the Purolator Classic oil filter tear issue continues, I have been emailing a Purolator rep, and he claims they do not routinely simply gather used oil filters to cut open.

Since BITOG members cut open filters, and cutting them open reveals failures, I don't see why a big company doesn't do this on a regular basis to help them form a view of failure rates in the real world. (In fact, the Purolator rep asked ME if I knew of any company that does this.)

Do any BITOG readers know of any mass-produced products where the maker routinely gathers a sample of real-world spent products to see how they are holding up?


I can see them wanting to control all phases of testing. Getting old filter from consumers who have done who knows what with them might not be helpful.

They should be interested in ones that have failed and I would assume they do some amount of real life testing in company vehicles or similar.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: FetchFar
While the Purolator Classic oil filter tear issue continues, I have been emailing a Purolator rep, and he claims they do not routinely simply gather used oil filters to cut open.

Since BITOG members cut open filters, and cutting them open reveals failures, I don't see why a big company doesn't do this on a regular basis to help them form a view of failure rates in the real world. (In fact, the Purolator rep asked ME if I knew of any company that does this.)

Do any BITOG readers know of any mass-produced products where the maker routinely gathers a sample of real-world spent products to see how they are holding up?


I can see them wanting to control all phases of testing. Getting old filter from consumers who have done who knows what with them might not be helpful.

They should be interested in ones that have failed and I would assume they do some amount of real life testing in company vehicles or similar.


I think there is value in seeing what common thread there is on filters in the field have that show media failures.

For instance, if they find that tears only occur in the filters with very wide pleat spacing or on pleats that have a very wide "V" stance at the end cap, then that could be one of the factors involved.

Or if they find that only filters with the metal crimped seam have media failures, then that would tell them what factors could play a role in the failure. Something like that plus the extreme use conditions like in very cold climates could add up to cause a failure. I don't think it's one root cause factor ... I think it's 2 or 3 adding up in the wrong direction to cause media tearing.

 

[threeputtpar]

Originally Posted By: FetchFar
Do any BITOG readers know of any mass-produced products where the maker routinely gathers a sample of real-world spent products to see how they are holding up?


Maybe Trojan does this?

But seriously, maybe you've stumbled onto an entreprenurial idea for yourself.

 

[FetchFar]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If they are not simulating a filter being used on a car in Montana in -20 deg F climate with 5w30 flowing through it at 5 GPM then they are not testing for worse case scenarios where the most delta-p force/stress is incurred on the media.


They are. In the email text excerpt in post #3352835 above, you'll see they use industry tests, and, of course, he mentioned temperature variations. I think they know thick cold oil is a real stress case.

 

[FetchFar]

Originally Posted By: Donald
They should be interested in ones that have failed and I would assume they do some amount of real life testing in company vehicles or similar.


No, Purolator does not cut open used oil filters from the field, according to a Quality Manager at Purolator I've been emailing back and forth, the same guy who answered original concerns from random consumers who DID cut open THEIR company's oil filters. ... It all seems weird to me. Just seems easy and simple. Yet, in no uncertain terms, the Quality Manager told me they don't do it.