Oil and engine noise - My kitchen table test
- Thread starter Rodbuckler
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wetting ability
GPI good
GPII ok GPIII OK
PAO suck
Esters Great
bruce
GPI good
GPII ok GPIII OK
PAO suck
Esters Great
bruce
I noticed that new 15W40 oil in the Cummins was quieter, with less faint clickety-clackety noises when warming up, that I'm guessing was valve clatter. A synthetic blend that I used for awhile when it was available, Exxon XD3 Elite, also made for a quiter engine. I also notice that 6 oz of LC added to the oil (12 qts) towards the end of the oil change interval also has the same effect.
I'm a believer. My PP blend runs dreamy smooth all the way through RPM range at all throttle angles. Goodbye Delo blend. Mobil better reformulate M1 to pass my dorky cup test.
It would be interesting for the guys who do these tests to try it with a touch of a popular additive, like ARX and maybe VSOT. I'd bet ARX would make a oil wetter and clingier.
I have always run an Mobil 1 10w30 / Castrol GTX 10w30 blend in my 351W. I went to all Mobil 1 10w30 last change, and I can't tell any difference in hot run noise or vibration. But I did pick up some cold start piston slap. I will "save" this engine by topping off with Delo 400 15w40 before I crack and bend any piston skirts. I had a broken skirt last time I took the engine apart. A used oil analysis would not predict this. If the engine is noisy, you need to fix it with the oil as best you can.
I'm going to have a hard time believing that piston slap severe enough to break a skirt, is not going to show elevated wear metals. Further, an engine with that severe of piston slap is not going to be saved by going up a grade or two of oil. You're in LaLa Land now, I'm moving on. Enjoy.
The piston slap was never severe. That skirt probably broke an instant after the engine fired one day. I intended say that M1 is not controlling the cold pistons as well as the previous blend (which gave no slap at all). Cold viscosity is probably much lower with the M1.
427Z06,
I ran two back-to-back OCI's for roughly 4500-5000 miles each with Mobil 1 5w30 in my '97 Maxima. Both runs, the VQ30 engine was loud and vibrated enough to feel in the steering wheel while in Drive. Both used oil analysis of the Mobil 1 showed elevated lead and iron. I returned to Castrol GTX 5w30, and the engine noise and smoothness returned to "normal". I have since run GC, and the engine was even quieter and smoother than on the GTX. There also was no measurable loss of mileage, which I calculate in a spreadsheet to the nearest hundredth, and have for years. This was not only my subjective observation, but also my wife's, and without prodding from me (she asked me if it seemed quieter when she didn't know I had changed the oil).
Numerous posts here and on Maxima.org mention that Nissan VQ's like thicker 30 weights. The manual specs 5w30 as preferred, and 10w30 suitable. The European manual for the same car specs everything from a 5w20 (but stipulating not recommended for sustained high speed driving), up to a 20w50 for hot areas. Interestingly, it also states 5w30 will positively improve fuel economy, but 10w30 is preferable for ambient temps above -20*C. In fact, the 5w30 is only recommended up to a temp of +15*C (+59*F). These differences in recommended oils lead me to believe that thicker oils work better in VQ's. This is verified by many other VQ owners, and by my own observations. And Mobil 1 (a thin 30 wt) returned two sub-par used oil analysis in my car and made the car much louder, even to the "untrained" ear of my wife.
On another note about Mobil 1, is my Mother-In-Law's '99 GMC 1/2 ton has literally had a diet of only Mobil 1 from "birth", changed every 3000 miles (probably a waste of oil as it could go longer, but it's her truck). She now has 60,000+ miles, and her dipstick is "permanently" varnished. It will not wipe off, and is concentrated on the end that constantly sits in the oil. I don't know what to think of that, but thought I'd mention it.
Due to my 2 bad used oil analysis on Mobil 1, and varnish on my MIL's dipstick, I personally will not use Mobil 1 in my 2 Nissans. Others may get good results from it, but I personally have better results with Castrol GTX and GC.
For the 5w20 "thin is in" crowd, why would Nissan state 5w20 is not recommended for sustained high speed driving? And keep in mind this is for a Nissan VQ30, which has been on Ward's top 10 engine list since the list's inception. It's not likely that Ford has much tighter tolerances. I personally opine that it is CAFE driven, and especially when "non-CAFE" regions recommend higher viscosities. Just some food for thought/discussion.
Dave
I ran two back-to-back OCI's for roughly 4500-5000 miles each with Mobil 1 5w30 in my '97 Maxima. Both runs, the VQ30 engine was loud and vibrated enough to feel in the steering wheel while in Drive. Both used oil analysis of the Mobil 1 showed elevated lead and iron. I returned to Castrol GTX 5w30, and the engine noise and smoothness returned to "normal". I have since run GC, and the engine was even quieter and smoother than on the GTX. There also was no measurable loss of mileage, which I calculate in a spreadsheet to the nearest hundredth, and have for years. This was not only my subjective observation, but also my wife's, and without prodding from me (she asked me if it seemed quieter when she didn't know I had changed the oil).
Numerous posts here and on Maxima.org mention that Nissan VQ's like thicker 30 weights. The manual specs 5w30 as preferred, and 10w30 suitable. The European manual for the same car specs everything from a 5w20 (but stipulating not recommended for sustained high speed driving), up to a 20w50 for hot areas. Interestingly, it also states 5w30 will positively improve fuel economy, but 10w30 is preferable for ambient temps above -20*C. In fact, the 5w30 is only recommended up to a temp of +15*C (+59*F). These differences in recommended oils lead me to believe that thicker oils work better in VQ's. This is verified by many other VQ owners, and by my own observations. And Mobil 1 (a thin 30 wt) returned two sub-par used oil analysis in my car and made the car much louder, even to the "untrained" ear of my wife.
On another note about Mobil 1, is my Mother-In-Law's '99 GMC 1/2 ton has literally had a diet of only Mobil 1 from "birth", changed every 3000 miles (probably a waste of oil as it could go longer, but it's her truck). She now has 60,000+ miles, and her dipstick is "permanently" varnished. It will not wipe off, and is concentrated on the end that constantly sits in the oil. I don't know what to think of that, but thought I'd mention it.
Due to my 2 bad used oil analysis on Mobil 1, and varnish on my MIL's dipstick, I personally will not use Mobil 1 in my 2 Nissans. Others may get good results from it, but I personally have better results with Castrol GTX and GC.
For the 5w20 "thin is in" crowd, why would Nissan state 5w20 is not recommended for sustained high speed driving? And keep in mind this is for a Nissan VQ30, which has been on Ward's top 10 engine list since the list's inception. It's not likely that Ford has much tighter tolerances. I personally opine that it is CAFE driven, and especially when "non-CAFE" regions recommend higher viscosities. Just some food for thought/discussion.
Dave
I would like to take this test form the kitchen table to the car.
I think it is safe to state that cold engines make more noise then warm engines.
Cold = not driven for 10-12 hours.
Warm = operating temerature.
Test #1
Start your car cold, drive it for about a half a mile, then get the revs up to where you normaly would't with a cold engine and listen to your engine.
Test #2
Put a thinner weight oil in your engine.
Lets say 5w30 instead of 10w30, or 0W-40 instead of 5W-40.
Make sure the quality of oils used is the good, AP1 ratings, ILSAC, etc.
Then perform Test #1.
Post the results.
Do not be surpriced to hear less noise with thinner weight oil.
Less noise - in my mind - is better.
Here are my results (wow thats quick
)
My engine made less noise with the 0W-40 during test #1.
I think it is safe to state that cold engines make more noise then warm engines.
Cold = not driven for 10-12 hours.
Warm = operating temerature.
Test #1
Start your car cold, drive it for about a half a mile, then get the revs up to where you normaly would't with a cold engine and listen to your engine.
Test #2
Put a thinner weight oil in your engine.
Lets say 5w30 instead of 10w30, or 0W-40 instead of 5W-40.
Make sure the quality of oils used is the good, AP1 ratings, ILSAC, etc.
Then perform Test #1.
Post the results.
Do not be surpriced to hear less noise with thinner weight oil.
Less noise - in my mind - is better.
Here are my results (wow thats quick
My engine made less noise with the 0W-40 during test #1.
As far as cold noise goes I find that a little thicker oil might quiet the bottom end, and a thinner oil might quiet the top end. Stickiness helps with both.
I do your test, but I try to settle in on a hot viscosity and stickiness first.
I bet the varnishing is from fuel in the oil and blowby from alot of driving with cold oil. M1 usually keeps the engine spotless. That is one of the many reasons that it is an excellent oil. Alkaline substance will take the varnish off. She should clean the engine before it's too late.
The reason an engine is spec'd for 5W-20 is because the oiling system is designed around that oil. This is a good thing because the engine will make more power. It is only possible today because the of the development of readily available excellent 5W-20 oils. All of the race engines are going toward the use of 20 weight oils, so you can forget about the fuel mileage thing as being the only factor. Why waste engine power in the oil system if you don't have to?
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Maybe so ..but there is one thing that is also conspicuously absent in most of the regions that cars don't spec 5w-20 ...American vehicles. It would reason that there would not be a whole lot of demand for 5w-20 oils. Most have opted for other forms of oil/fuel conservation as opposed to our manufacturer regulated CAFE. There is no region on the planet that has this much personal transportation at its disposal. They've let price/tax penalize the end user and let them decide via their wallet ..and have opted for extended drains for motor oil conservation/waste reduction. This would lend itself to heavier weight SYNTHs (not mandated in the vast majority of the US fleet) over the extended OCI that the Euros currently use (for one region). Cars are viewed quite differently in other parts of the world. In many places they are luxuries.
"All of the race engines are going toward the use of 20 weight oils, so you can forget about the fuel mileage thing as being the only factor."
Motorcraft recommends 5W50 in the 5.4L SC engine in the GT, Mobil has advertised that Mobil 1 15W50 was factory fill in some of the Ford high output modulars, etc., so when wear performance is needed in high output engines for longer periods than in 500 mile 'sprint' races, like in endurance racing or in high output cars designed for road use, even Ford seems to use thick oils. High output models from Ferarri, BMW, etc., also seem to recommend thicker oils.
That aside, I am trying out some Mobil 1 0W40 in the Taurus sedans as the newer one with the older, weaker battery seems to sometimes have problems starting on the 1st try on colder mornings with Mobil 1 5W40, and I want to see how the oil consumption is with that oil in the older one, as it's been on 5W40 for awhile now. It seems to be as quiet as the 5W40.
Motorcraft recommends 5W50 in the 5.4L SC engine in the GT, Mobil has advertised that Mobil 1 15W50 was factory fill in some of the Ford high output modulars, etc., so when wear performance is needed in high output engines for longer periods than in 500 mile 'sprint' races, like in endurance racing or in high output cars designed for road use, even Ford seems to use thick oils. High output models from Ferarri, BMW, etc., also seem to recommend thicker oils.
That aside, I am trying out some Mobil 1 0W40 in the Taurus sedans as the newer one with the older, weaker battery seems to sometimes have problems starting on the 1st try on colder mornings with Mobil 1 5W40, and I want to see how the oil consumption is with that oil in the older one, as it's been on 5W40 for awhile now. It seems to be as quiet as the 5W40.
They have to design the hot oil viscosity to the application. It is safer to set up a combined usage engine for a thicker oil.
Thanks for sharing this. I wouldn't worry about which oil makes an engine loud.
For long endurance races, I'm sure heavier viscosities are used to allow for fuel dilution. A 20wt oil at the beginning of a race could end up being a 5w oil by the end. In NASCAR, most run 30wt at the most these days. They qualify on 0w-5 wt oils.
"For long endurance races, I'm sure heavier viscosities are used to allow for fuel dilution. "
With the potential for higher output it seems that one could design the oil supply for quick changes to offset fuel dilution. A Nascar race seems to often be 500 miles, while fast cars at Le Mans are doing over 3000 (?) miles.
With the potential for higher output it seems that one could design the oil supply for quick changes to offset fuel dilution. A Nascar race seems to often be 500 miles, while fast cars at Le Mans are doing over 3000 (?) miles.
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For the 5w20 "thin is in" crowd, why would Nissan state 5w20 is not recommended for sustained high speed driving?
Over the spec'd OCI.
Towing vehicles exceed normal oil temps ..sometimes for sustained periods. Their 30 or 40 weight is reduced to less then a 20 weight. Does the manufacturer say not to tow ..or to go to 50 or 60 weight if doing so? No, they shorten the OCI. It's called practical limits in severe duty. If you can't raise the bridge, lower the river.
Over the spec'd OCI.
Towing vehicles exceed normal oil temps ..sometimes for sustained periods. Their 30 or 40 weight is reduced to less then a 20 weight. Does the manufacturer say not to tow ..or to go to 50 or 60 weight if doing so? No, they shorten the OCI. It's called practical limits in severe duty. If you can't raise the bridge, lower the river.
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