Oil Additives for Lubrication vs Sludge

[facility1]

Engine lubricants are formulated by people that know what they are doing and do best, according to the the specifications of the licenses and approvals and financial production/market costs to meet the task at hand ,the likeliness of a additive clash (though unlikely) or cause of sludge can often be contributed to ,driving habits, viscosity needs , fuel quality, along with outside temps (environment) and most commonly engine design, and condition of engine, PLUS improper oil change service intervals. & more/less moly, boron, etc additive count is not always the way to go with balancing with the quality of the base oil (s) used , and it's hard to make one size to fit all (engine manufactures, requirements, api , cafe epa etc)...............oh by the way there are different types of moly manufactured , Infinium, Afto, Lubrizol Oronite have their own ,say, recipes. . reading a Safety Data Sheet does not tell you all what is REALLY in the oil it may give at its best a general idea, however it's there solely for a given safety /hazard purpose, it's not a formulators total ingredient blending spec. sheet. product data sheets do have slight variances too which is common in the blend process.

 

[4WD]

This is where extensive testing comes in. There are harmonizing agencies that apply universal standards such as ASTM test methodology. The OEM’s are part of the process - before/during/after - and have stringent approvals …
Internal/external labs exist worldwide these days …

 

[4WD]

Engine lubricants are formulated by people that know what they are doing and do best, according to the the specifications of the licenses and approvals and financial production/market costs to meet the task at hand ,the likeliness of a additive clash (though unlikely) or cause of sludge can often be contributed to ,driving habits, viscosity needs , fuel quality, along with outside temps (environment) and most commonly engine design, and condition of engine, PLUS improper oil change service intervals. & more/less moly, boron, etc additive count is not always the way to go with balancing with the quality of the base oil (s) used , and it's hard to make one size to fit all (engine manufactures, requirements, api , cafe epa etc)...............oh by the way there are different types of moly manufactured , Infinium, Afto, Lubrizol Oronite have their own ,say, recipes. . reading a Safety Data Sheet does not tell you all what is REALLY in the oil it may give at its best a general idea, however it's there solely for a given safety /hazard purpose, it's not a formulators total ingredient blending spec. sheet. product data sheets do have slight variances too which is common in the blend process.

Take the popular VRP - it’s believed to not only prevent deposits - but to also remove previous deposits … Yet it contains what is perceived here as healthy amounts of additives … (those that can be seen in VOA’s etc) …
Same with boutiques - but they do it differently …

 

[MolaKule]

I have heard that having more good additives for lubrication can result in increased sludge. I have heard that said of oils that have more ZDDP and/or more moly. Do you think this is true or just an incorrect urban legend?

Are you referring to the chemistry in commercial DI additive packages, or are you referring to after-market or over-the-counter additives?

After-market or over-the-counter additives can contribute to sludge, but a balanced DI package will not, assuming the oil is changed with logical OCI's. It is the degradation of the anti-oxidant agent in a DI package that allows sludge if the OCI is exceeded.

Valvoline Extreme Protection Full Syn is an example of an oil with excellent additives for improved lubrication. Likewise with NAPA Full Syn (which I think is the same oil in a NAPA bottle). The increased level of additives (including moly) is known to improve lubrication, but does it also increase sludge or deposits?

Answered above.

 

[PNW Jeeper]

Maybe that's why high ZDDP oils also have a ton of detergents, like HPL Super Car and the old high ZDDP Red Line.

 

[Plumb Bob]

As pointed out by Mola, the slug will not cause sludge. Sleep well, Thirteen.

 

[kschachn]

Maybe that's why high ZDDP oils also have a ton of detergents, like HPL Super Car and the old high ZDDP Red Line.

What do the detergents do?

 

[PNW Jeeper]

What do the detergents do?

Well, I use detergents in the kitchen to clean the grease from the dishes

 

[kschachn]

Well, I use detergents in the kitchen to clean the grease from the dishes

Yeah. Perhaps hold off giving technical advice or speculating “maybe that’s why”.

 

[PNW Jeeper]

Yeah. Perhaps hold off giving technical advice or speculating “maybe that’s why”.

I said maybe

 

[Plumb Bob]

Well, I use detergents in the kitchen to clean the grease from the dishes

Second day on the board, and you posted this? What is the relevance of that statement to the topic being discussed here, or the question about detergents you were asked?

 

[OilUzer]

imho, the bottom line is short OCIs and if really concerned, spend a few dollars more to start with a better oil (i.e. more approvals like a Euro oil) ... That's all you can do.
It's much easier than listening to all these unknown people on YouTube.

Basically the best you can to is to exceed your OM requirements or recommendations! And remembering that oil can not resolve design issues. Sounds like some engines are more sludge friendly than others. And the last time I sold a car due to engine problems was never. 2 had major rust issues and other ones because I needed or wanted something different.

 

[MolaKule]

Well, I use detergents in the kitchen to clean the grease from the dishes

And you really know these detergents in the dishwashing liquid have the same chemistry as are found in engine lubricants?

I suggest you need to study some organic chemistry.

 

[PNW Jeeper]

And you really know these detergents in the dishwashing liquid have the same chemistry as are found in engine lubricants?

I suggest you need to study some organic chemistry.

Will do

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I have heard that having more good additives for lubrication can result in increased sludge. I have heard that said of oils that have more ZDDP and/or more moly. Do you think this is true or just an incorrect urban legend?

Valvoline Extreme Protection Full Syn is an example of an oil with excellent additives for improved lubrication. Likewise with NAPA Full Syn (which I think is the same oil in a NAPA bottle). The increased level of additives (including moly) is known to improve lubrication, but does it also increase sludge or deposits?

With that in mind, what (if any) are the downsides of having high levels of additives?

I'm aware of cat issues with increased ZDDP. Does that also apply to increased levels of moly? How about sparkplug and valve cleanliness for port injection engines?

Yes it's true. @buster posted the link to a study.

Edit: Post in thread 'Are Turbos Hard on Oil?' https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/are-turbos-hard-on-oil.398580/post-7334803

 

[PNW Jeeper]

And you really know these detergents in the dishwashing liquid have the same chemistry as are found in engine lubricants?

I suggest you need to study some organic chemistry.

I sucked in biology and chemistry, they went over my head. I loved Physics and Mathematics

 

[OilStainedNapkin]

Odd thread I must say

 

[RDY4WAR]

I sucked in biology and chemistry, they went over my head. I loved Physics and Mathematics

Detergent, in the context of oil additives, is a bit of a misnomer. It's not like a surfactant in dish liquid that lifts crud off surfaces. It can somewhat do that, weakly, but that's not the primary function. They're really acid neutralizers. The common forms are calcium and magnesium sulfonates with a core carbonate salt. Their siblings are sold as OTC medications under the names Tums and Milk of Magnesia. The same way they neutralize acids in your gut that cause heartburn and indigestion, they neutralize acids in the oil that cause oxidation and corrosion. They exist to keep the oil clean, not clean the engine.

 

[STMech]

No, I did not. You misquoted me and you misunderstood the OP context and intent.

I stated that I've heard that more (of some) additives can cause more sludge. I did not state that it's true or a fact.

I then asked questions about it.

I did not misquote you. Those are your exact words. If that is not what you meant, that’s an entirely different thing. Be precise, and be honest enough to stand by your own words.

 

[STMech]

I said in OP that ZDDP and/or moly are the additives I was asking about.

I don't know if they do. I didn't state that they do. I asked if they do.

Do you understand the difference between a question and a statement? The purpose of the OP was to ask questions.

I don't know what you're talking about. Neither do you. Please reread the OP and comprehend that I was asking, not telling or stating.

You are the most aggressive newbie I've ever seen with all of 33 posts under your belt.

So 1200 posts makes your verbiage more understandable? Seems to me that you are blowing smoke around your incomprehensible assertions. But that’s just my newbie’s opinion.