OHC engines and oil viscosity

[Rooster]

The car makers could tell you to use 0w-5 oil, and when you balk, say "You can't prove to us that this oil causes any kind of accelerated wear or engine damage". They would be right, even when my engine wore out at 95k miles how could I prove it was the oil.

As long as there aren't too many catastrophic engine failures during the warranty period, what does Ford or Honda care? I don't know, but by observation I think that the number of people who buy cars and drive them till they are scrap is pretty small, less than 15%. As long as the benefits to the carmakers from the govt for pushing 0w-5 oil outweighed the costs of repairs covered by waranty, everything would be just great with the carmakers.

Chevron Supreme 10w30 has a pour point of -36f. I don't think using it in my Ford 4.6 v-8 in summer (low of maybe 50f) is going to kill my engine. Ford thinks pulling a trailer on a hot day only needs a 5w-20 oil? That's a good one ...

 

[Justin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rooster:
The car makers could tell you to use 0w-5 oil, and when you balk, say "You can't prove to us that this oil causes any kind of accelerated wear or engine damage". They would be right, even when my engine wore out at 95k miles how could I prove it was the oil.

As long as there aren't too many catastrophic engine failures during the warranty period, what does Ford or Honda care? I don't know, but by observation I think that the number of people who buy cars and drive them till they are scrap is pretty small, less than 15%. As long as the benefits to the carmakers from the govt for pushing 0w-5 oil outweighed the costs of repairs covered by waranty, everything would be just great with the carmakers.

Chevron Supreme 10w30 has a pour point of -36f. I don't think using it in my Ford 4.6 v-8 in summer (low of maybe 50f) is going to kill my engine. Ford thinks pulling a trailer on a hot day only needs a 5w-20 oil? That's a good one ...

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...Amen Rooster

I've personally never used any lighter than 10w-30, and when I saw Ford going to 5w-20 (even for their F-250 through F-550 line!), it really made me wonder what they were trying to accomplish.

Obviously, it's two things. First, fuel economy, and second, a slight (very, very, very slight) reduction in emissions.

Like you said Rooster, people just (most) don't keep their vehicles till they fall apart...they usually keep 'em till maybe 100,000 to 120,000, but that's it. Heck, running the lightest, cheapest grade available, even when towing, an engine will last that long.

I keep my vehicles till their done though...and if I get a Ford (F-350SRW)...you'll see at least 10w-30 going into the case.

Justin.

 

[khager]

Ok I buy the CAFE requirements reason for going with 5W-20 for Ford. But Honda? Why? There fleet probably has one of the highest averages of any automaker.

 

[Dr. T]

Honda is also coming out with bigger vehicles...aka Pilot, etc.

But, my guess is they're trying to win the 'show-off award' for best fuel economy period...that's why they were the first to rush out and introduce a 'hybrid' vehicle for sale....aka Insight. Don't think you'd be using a 20-50 in the Insight now wuddya?

 

[buster]

quote:

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Ok I buy the CAFE requirements reason for going with 5W-20 for Ford. But Honda? Why? There fleet probably has one of the highest averages of any automaker.

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The more, the better. Honda and Toyta are big on efficiency. I'm sure Toyota will follow the 20wt trend soon. I think a strong case has been made that it really is CAFE that is driving the 20wts. into the automarket. Clearances havn't changed and the rest of the world still uses 40wt plus oils.

The 20wts won't thin out, especially the syn lubes. 20pt spread is nothing. It's the 0w-40 guys you have to watch.

When you look at Redline's and even Amsoil's 5w-20, they are formulated on the high end of the 20wt scale, almost 30wts. Anything lower wouldn't meet the HT/HS of 2.9 or does this apply to 30wts only? For anyone thinking it doesn't make a differnce using a 20wt, how do you account for the lower HT/HS numbers? Isn't that alone an indication of the lack of performance?

 

[buster]

http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/mobil_au/

Mobil New Zealand calls for a 10w-30 or 5w-50 oil in a 1.8l Toyota Corolla engine, same engine as my car. A 50wt. oil! It's got to be CAFE unless the engines are different. Sump capacity is 3.9, exactly the same.

BTW, Amsoil said AMsoil is fully compatible with M1 and can be mixed and used for extended drains....hmmmm.

[ April 24, 2003, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[khager]

Yea Buster, I see what you are saying I went to that link and it calls for a 5w-50 for a 2001 Honda Accord 2.3L VTEC here in the states its 5W-20 hmmm go figure?

 

[sprintman]

The only difference between the cars is the boat they were loaded on.. No CAFE = no 5W20. I went to Supercheap Auto last week for their 20% of everything for a day sale and there wasn't a single 10W30 to be found, let alome 5W30 or 5W20. And this is a big auto store with shelves full of oil. There was the new Castrol Formula R 0W40 but mainly 20W50, 5W50. 15W60, 25W70 and horror 40W70 (I bought Motul Synergie 6100 5W40 next door at Autobarn).

 

[JohnBrowning]

I can still remember GM's silly 5W20 days in the early 1980's. They had so many catastrophic engine failures and all that followed the 5W20 recomendation were smokeing by 80,000 miles. I can also remember as a young Tec. in Germany watching 5W20 and 5W30 oil sludge up in less then 1500 miles of driveing at Autobahn speeds. If someone was always going to drive gingerly then you migt get decent results with 5W20 synthetic but never with dino 5W20 in the long run. Short of the very slight emmision and fuel efficency increases what is gained? How does it improve ownership for the owner? Temp., Loading, Clearnace, RPM, oil flow..... these are all that matter. Their is a rason that not a single commercical diesel engine manufacture recomends a OW or 5W20 in any of their engines. You can not get high load or high heat shear proctetion from a 0W or a 5W20. Film strength has always been shown to drop off as viscosity drops. These oils might be ok for a car that does all hwy driveing and is driven gently and seldom see's any type of high loading like accelerateing hard, pulling stumps, high load low speed rock crawling........ Common sense and real world experince have already proved this to be true. I like scientific and peer reviewed work as much as the next guy but somethings are just not needed. These new thin oils are solutions looking for a problem!

 

[JohnBrowning]

I just wanted to add that any well designed OHC engine will have a bath tub like area under each lobe that is always filled with oil. The cam lobes highest point will be submerged in oil as it is rotated by the crank. This ensures that you have enough lube even before oil pressure is up. The cam journals really are not under any serious load and have a film of oil on them from shut down. Most modern OHC engines also use airators so as soon as you get positive oil pressure you are getting a mist of oil on the valve train. Considering how well modern synthetics flow how much advantage is going to be gained by useing synthetic 0W30 or 5W20 over older weights likes synthetic 5W30 or 10W30. Clearance have not changed on most engine bearing in about the last 10-15 years. So if clearances have remanined the same what is the motivation to go to thinner oil?? Burden of proof is on the new products and their proponets. Wear are the long term durability studies? Where are all of the cars with 200,000-300,000 miles on origanal internal parts? Where is the data pool?

 

[Steve S]

Pull the valve cover off an ohc engine do what it takes to disable the ignition and crank the motor over and see how long the oil takes to pump up at different temps then we can compare.

 

[Steve S]

Rereading these posts brings up a subject synthetic oils pump better at colder temps, yes or no ,then a 10w30 or 15w40 should have no problems in colder weather. The newer hydroisomerized do alot better in cold compared to the group ones so the 05w/20 pumping to the cam may be not so. Time will tell about 05w/20 motors holding up . As an opinion for what it is worth I would use a 10w30 synthetic oil instead of a 05w20 and let other people test the 05w/20 in their new motors.

[ May 06, 2003, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: Steve S ]

 

[Ken2]

JohnBrowning,

Agreeing with everything you say, but modern 5W-20 oils are far superior to earlier efforts. In addition to the requirements of API-SL, Ford and Honda require that the 5W-20 oils that meet their spec pass double length Sequence IIIF testing which evaluates oil thickening, piston deposits, and valve train wear under high speed, high
temperature conditions.
http://www.76lubricants.com/cmc_upload/EDITORIAL/0/000/017/869/tn3_4.pdf

It's fair to compare modern 10W-30 or 5W-30 and Ford/Honda spec 5W-20 oils. It is not valid to compare modern 5W-20 oil with old versions.


Ken

 

[JohnBrowning]

Steve modern synthetics pump so well that anything thinner then a 5W30 or even a OW30 is really silly. I have yet to encounter temp's so low that regular M1 10W30 would not easily turn over. I see 20 below zero every year. I could be wrong here but I thout that Amsoil 0W30 would pump at -84 degrees F. How much colder is it going to get and where and the heck are you going at that tempature. What is next -5W30? I have timed my oil pressure and I get positive oil pressure instantly and full oil pressure within 13 second at temps below -20 with M1 10W30. I just do not see what is being gained with 5W20 and 0W20?

 

[buster]

quote:

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I just do not see what is being gained with 5W20 and 0W20?
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Posts: 28 | From: USA | Registered: May 2003 | IP: Logged |

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Not much thats for sure. I think the whole 0w-20 things is nuts. I'm not against 20wts or saying they won't be good, but they just dont make sense. Miniscule mpg increases won't even be noticeable probably from using these lighter wts. Also, like you said, you can't get HT/HS from 20wt oils. This is why I like Amsoil's and Redline's 20wts. Unless your in the North Pole, do you really need anything lower then a 5w? I don't think so.

It would make more sense IMO, for the EPA or whatever other enviro group to push for longer drain oils to cut consumption and the disposal of used oil as mentioned in the Lube article. Europe does it. You don't see them running 20wt oils. I think were backwards on this issue.

[ May 07, 2003, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: buster ]