I have repeatedly come across the statement "there is no domestic equivalent to the Japanese red coolants". Fleetguard ES Compleat is Oat + Phosphates. Would that not be a equivalent? Am I oversimplifying things by categorizing Japanese coolants as OAT + Phosphates and in fact the chemistries are more complex?
OAT + Phosphates
- Thread starter George7941
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I don't know exactly about Toyota red. I've got a bottle at home and there's a list of ingredient types. I do realize that the ingredient list may only be of potentially hazardous ingredients and not a complete list.
I do recall buying older Honda green coolant. That bottle specifically said it was free of silicates, nitrites, and borates. The Honda flyer I saw at the dealer mentioned that borates could be mildly abrasive and could increase the change of water pump seals leaking.
I do recall buying older Honda green coolant. That bottle specifically said it was free of silicates, nitrites, and borates. The Honda flyer I saw at the dealer mentioned that borates could be mildly abrasive and could increase the change of water pump seals leaking.
Ray H. I got the info from www.fleetguard.com. The US part no. is CC2820. The description includes "Phosphate Buffers, Nitrite, Molybdate and Organic Acid corrosion inhibitors".
Thanks for the heads-up, George! (Add to your list the Honda and Nissan green antifreeze/coolant concentrates, too.
) I got on Fleetguard's U.S. website to do a little sluething. I eventually found and downloaded the product data sheet for Fleetguard ES Compleat Ethylene Glycol Extended Life Antifreeze Coolant Concentrate and it lists the following ingredients:
- ethylene glycol*
- nitrite
- molybdate
- organic acids ["OAT"]
- low silicates
Note, there was no mention of phosphates. I have no explanation for the discrepency from your description unless there're chemistry differences between identically labled product in the U.S. and Canada. I would hope Fleetguard's website is up to date. Fleetguard does indicate "best aluminum and solder protection", and at that, in heavy-duty diesel engine applications. In an automotive application, the Flletguard ES Cpmpleat antifreeze/coolant may well be a viable alternative to the "usual suspects", but it doesn't appear to be a direct, identical chemistry replacement for the Japanese "recipe". The question for me really boils down to whether it makes economic sense to use this formulation in an automotive cooling system, and whether the only distribution channel is through heavy-duty diesel engine part/maintenance centers.
*Fleetguard produces a companion propylene glycol product. I did not download its product data sheet, so I cannot comment on its suitability or other ingredient formulation differences, if any.
- ethylene glycol*
- nitrite
- molybdate
- organic acids ["OAT"]
- low silicates
Note, there was no mention of phosphates. I have no explanation for the discrepency from your description unless there're chemistry differences between identically labled product in the U.S. and Canada. I would hope Fleetguard's website is up to date. Fleetguard does indicate "best aluminum and solder protection", and at that, in heavy-duty diesel engine applications. In an automotive application, the Flletguard ES Cpmpleat antifreeze/coolant may well be a viable alternative to the "usual suspects", but it doesn't appear to be a direct, identical chemistry replacement for the Japanese "recipe". The question for me really boils down to whether it makes economic sense to use this formulation in an automotive cooling system, and whether the only distribution channel is through heavy-duty diesel engine part/maintenance centers.
*Fleetguard produces a companion propylene glycol product. I did not download its product data sheet, so I cannot comment on its suitability or other ingredient formulation differences, if any.
Went on the Fleetguard website again. I think Ray H was looking at ES Optimax, not at ES Compleat. The ES Compleat is not a full Oat, it has some organic acid corrosion inhibitors. I did not know that there was a partial OAT coolant. It does not seem to be a hybrid like GO5 which is OAT with some additions. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.
No, I was specifically accessing information on the "Compleat" line, and the page I accessed listed gallon jug part number, "CC2820". (I never did find the same info you reported . . . Could you post the actual page URL, George?) But, the real deal buster as far as I'm concerned regarding compatibility with Japanese coolant technology philosophy is that the Fleetguard ES Compleat EG antifreeze/coolants contain silicates. All three of the Japanese "big three" are adamant about not wanting silicates in their systems. I doubt that that the reduced silicate levels in Zerex G-05 and Fleetguard ES Compleat would be a problem in a properly maintained system, but while under warranty, I also doubt it's worth the potential risk of a warranty claim denial.
The complete URL is http://www.fleetguard.com/fleet/pdfs/product-lit/americas-brochures/LT15108.pdf?SMSESSION=NO I am not sure if I have the right dashes [-]. On my screen the dashes were a bit lower on the line.
http://www.fleetguard.com/fleet/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/LT15108.pdf?SMSESSION=NO . Disregard the previous URL, it is not correct. This one works, I pasted this one on, the previous one was entered in a letter at a time.
Sho' 'nuff, phosphates are indeed listed on that page! THANKS!!!
The two pages I had found were specific just for "ES Compleat". Yours covered a range of products including "ES Compleat". The wording on the page URL you provided raises another quesion in my easily befuddled brain - phosphate buffers . . . The Japanese seem to be implying that their use of phosphates is as a co-corrosion inhibitor. The explanations I've read infer that phosphates are quickly deposited on bare aluminum cooling system parts as immediate corrosion protection until the OAT can build up (which can reportedly take as long as 3,000 miles of driving). Is the Japanese philosophy merely another way of stating the same principal as Fleetguard's "buffer" statement, or are two entirely seperate chemical actions at play here only nubulously linked with the "phosphate" commonality? Or, are both notions at play, regardless? I honestly don't know - it's been a l-o-n-g 42 years since Chem 101 . . .
Just because it's one doesn't mean it's not the other. Sodium phosphate is mildly alkaline, which would make it an anti-acid buffer by neutralizing excess H+ ions. That doesn't mean it can't also prevent aluminum corrosion.quote:
Originally posted by Ray H:
Sho' 'nuff, phosphates are indeed listed on that page! THANKS!!!The two pages I had found were specific just for "ES Compleat". Yours covered a range of products including "ES Compleat". The wording on the page URL you provided raises another quesion in my easily befuddled brain - phosphate buffers . . . The Japanese seem to be implying that their use of phosphates is as a co-corrosion inhibitor. The explanations I've read infer that phosphates are quickly deposited on bare aluminum cooling system parts as immediate corrosion protection until the OAT can build up (which can reportedly take as long as 3,000 miles of driving). Is the Japanese philosophy merely another way of stating the same principal as Fleetguard's "buffer" statement, or are two entirely seperate chemical actions at play here only nubulously linked with the "phosphate" commonality? Or, are both notions at play, regardless? I honestly don't know - it's been a l-o-n-g 42 years since Chem 101 . . .
And I didn't even take Chem 1A in college.
Just because something is alkaline does not make it a buffer. A buffer absorbs H+ or OH- ions to keep the ph stable.
I didn't want to get too technical.
Although I didn't take college chem, I was taught this stuff in HS. A buffer is an alkaline or acidic compound where a relatively low concentration of H+ or OH- ions are disassociated. The rest can be dissolved (but not disassociated as ions). When an OH-(hydroxide) ion neutralizes an H+ (acid) ion, an un-ionized NaPO4 molecule disassociates into ions. It's the un-ionized molecules that make up the "reserve" Once the reserve is used up, it can get acidic rather quickly.
I have an aquarium "neutral regulator" made of phosphate buffers. I believe it's roughly equal parts sodium phosphate (don't know mono-,di- or tri-) and phosphoric acid - i.e. equal parts alkaline and acidic. It keeps the pH at 7.0. Introduce H+ and the OH- neutralizes it. Introduce OH- and the H+ neutralizes it. It works pretty well, but it works longer if the pH is adjusted to 7.0 first. The big problem is that algae thrives on the stuff. I believe that's also a big problem with phosphates in cleaning products. They can cause algae blooms when the wastewater enters lakes or streams.
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