Nuclear Fusion

[SubLGT]

A very interesting article, with many interesting photos, about the construction of the massive International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) in France.

some excerpts:

The construction — across 39 building sites — is incredibly complex. The main worksite is a markedly sterile environment, where tremendous components are being put into place with the help of 750-ton cranes. Workers have already put together the shell of the tokamak, but they are still awaiting some parts, including a giant magnet from Russia that will sit at the top of the machine.

The dimensions are mind-blowing. The tokamak will ultimately weigh 23,000 tons. That’s the combined weight of three Eiffel towers. It will comprise a million components, further differing into no fewer than 10 million smaller parts.

This powerful behemoth will be surrounded by some of the largest magnets ever created. Their staggering size — some of them have diameters of up to 24 meters — means they are are too large to transport and must be assembled on site in a giant hall. Given the huge number of parts involved, there’s simply no room for error.

Even the digital design of this enormous machine sits across 3D computer files that take up more than two terabytes of drive space.

Behind hundreds of workers putting the ITER project together are around 4,500 companies with 15,000 employees from all over the globe.

Thirty-five countries are collaborating on ITER, which is run by seven main members — China, the United States, the European Union, Russia, India, Japan and South Korea.

But as Russia seeks to redraw Europe’s map with its war in Ukraine, and even challenge the post-war world order, there are concerns over the country’s continued role in ITER, and just as many over its potential exclusion.

Russia has also provided some of the most critical elements of the ITER project and is one of its main funders. The magnet for the top of the tokamak, for example, was made in St. Petersburg and waits there, ready to be sent to France, said ITER’s head of communications, Laban Coblentz.

So far, Russia’s involvement in the project hasn’t changed in any way, he said.

"ITER is really a child of the Cold War,” Coblentz said. “It's a deliberate collaboration by countries that are ideologically unaligned who simply share a common goal for a better future.”

He pointed out that the seven main members have been through many tense events since ITER’s conception in 1985.

 

[ripcord]

My gut feeling based on nothing more than a layman's knowledge is that when cost effective sustainable, grid reliable energy production via fusion is finally achieved, it won't be with a tokamak design. The ITER project will go a long way toward testing the ultimate feasibility of tokamak reactors.

 

[oldcodger]

Fusion is always 15 to 25 years ahead. I believe fusion on a large scale energy/electrical generation is 50 to 75 years from now.

 

[Gyro Gearloose]

I remember reading about fusion when I was a teenager. Half a century ago. It's still not clear to me how you collect the energy from a 1 million degree reaction.

 

[Wolf359]

I wouldn't completely give up on it. LIGO took decades before it finally became functional too. But it's built like typical government projects, not supposed to be operational til 2035 and then the follow on project DEMO is supposed to really make energy in the 2050s. But like many government projects, they don't hit their deadlines and I'm sure it'll be years late.

 

[y_p_w]

They've been working on this sort of stuff at the National Ignition Facility at Lawrence Livermore Lab.

I was in college at the time of Pons and Fleischmann claiming that they had achieved cold fusion. My introductory physics prof didn't think too much of their "achievement".

 

[alarmguy]

IM not sure why it matters much, we have nuclear fusion now, sure we have waste but there are ways to dispose of it if we had the drive to do it.
Without question I am for further advancement and an energy source like this is more than welcome but here in the USA anyway, the word Nuclear is a bad word, yet the cleanest, most reliable and safest way to produce energy 24 hours a day.

One other thought, even though this is the research stage, the source would have to be much, much smaller than this project or the country that relies on energy form a source like this would be putting their security at risk, as under attack an enemy it would seem could disable a significant part of a country's ability to produce energy.

Anyway, yeah, sooner or later there will be some break through, but the next decade or two is going to see significant challenges I think though that maybe the turning point of the public being more receptive.

 

[Astro14]

I wouldn't completely give up on it. LIGO took decades before it finally became functional too. But it's built like typical government projects, not supposed to be operational til 2035 and then the follow on project DEMO is supposed to really make energy in the 2050s. But like many government projects, they don't hit their deadlines and I'm sure it'll be years late.

Like many government projects, they take tremendous amounts of money, so, they make press releases like this to keep public interest high and the funding flowing.

No matter how far away actual success might be…

 

[JTK]

Interesting.

Not entirely related, but the Three Mile Island docu-series on the netflix is pretty interesting.

I've been to coal fired power plants and plants that burn about anything, including nasty wet maggot infested garbage. Nuclear doesn't scare me.

 

[PandaBear]

It's easy to achieve fusion, they have done it for at least a decade now.

The problem is to make it net energy positive not only inside the "reactor" but also the accessory like the turbine, boiler, cooling, conversion, and transmission, and finally they need to be able to make enough profit to recoup the investment (the hardest part).

Cool project, but I won't be using any energy from this for quite some time.

 

[ripcord]

It's easy to achieve fusion, they have done it for at least a decade now.

The problem is to make it net energy positive not only inside the "reactor" but also the accessory like the turbine, boiler, cooling, conversion, and transmission, and finally they need to be able to make enough profit to recoup the investment (the hardest part).

Cool project, but I won't be using any energy from this for quite some time in my lifetime.

Fixed it for you

 

[Cujet]

I firmly believe inertial containment is required. All the magnets and lasers in the world can't do the job of inertia (which we know is also gravity). Stars have immense gravity which creates the pressure necessary and contains this process.

Our sun has more than 27 times the surface gravity of Earth. The core of our sun is said to be 3.8 trillion PSI and a density of 150 grams per CC. We simply can't achieve this.

 

[Wolf359]

I firmly believe inertial containment is required. All the magnets and lasers in the world can't do the job of inertia (which we know is also gravity). Stars have immense gravity which creates the pressure necessary and contains this process.

Our sun has more than 27 times the surface gravity of Earth. The core of our sun is said to be 3.8 trillion PSI and a density of 150 grams per CC. We simply can't achieve this.

I'm not even sure what you're saying. Have you been following the latest experiments? Some of it does work, the real problem is scaling it up and running it long enough to generate enough power. The theory is there, it's basically the engineering that they're still trying to figure out.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

I remember reading about fusion when I was a teenager. Half a century ago. It's still not clear to me how you collect the energy from a 1 million degree reaction.

Cold Fusion U, also known as The University of Utah, has known how for over three decades. Of course this has left that institution the laughing stock of the scientific world. But several of their faculty did it in a lab at room temperature. Those two gentlemen didn't remain faculty members very long. Let's hear it again for Cold Fusion U folks. They did it.

 

[MolaKule]

IM not sure why it matters much, we have nuclear fusion now, sure we have waste but there are ways to dispose of it if we had the drive to do it.
Without question I am for further advancement and an energy source like this is more than welcome but here in the USA anyway, the word Nuclear is a bad word, yet the cleanest, most reliable and safest way to produce energy 24 hours a day.

One other thought, even though this is the research stage, the source would have to be much, much smaller than this project or the country that relies on energy form a source like this would be putting their security at risk, as under attack an enemy it would seem could disable a significant part of a country's ability to produce energy.

Anyway, yeah, sooner or later there will be some break through, but the next decade or two is going to see significant challenges I think though that maybe the turning point of the public being more receptive.

Did you possibly mean, "Fission?"

 

[MolaKule]

Please discuss the technical and economic aspects of this technology but please don't post articles with these kinds of politically-charged comments: "If it can, the world will have no use for fossil fuels like coal, oil and gas, the main drivers of the human-made climate crisis..." or, "But as Russia seeks to redraw Europe’s map with its war in Ukraine, and even challenge the post-war world order, there are concerns over the country’s continued role in ITER, and just as many over its potential exclusion..."

The following rule still applies:

Posts about global warming

I have posted before that global warming is an inherently political topic and is therefore not permitted on BITOG, yet people continue to bring this topic up from time to time. Please refrain from posting about global warming. This includes posting links to articles about global warming.

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[MolaKule]

Cold Fusion U, also known as The University of Utah, has known how for over three decades. Of course this has left that institution the laughing stock of the scientific world. But several of their faculty did it in a lab at room temperature. Those two gentlemen didn't remain faculty members very long. Let's hear it again for Cold Fusion U folks. They did it.

A fairly even-keeled discussion on Cold Fusion.

What is the current scientific thinking on cold fusion? Is there any possible validity to this phenomenon?

Scientific American is the essential guide to the most awe-inspiring advances in science and technology, explaining how they change our understanding of the world and shape our lives.

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

A fairly even-keeled discussion on Cold Fusion.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...om/article/what-is-the-current-scien/[/QUOTE]

Maybe Joe Newman will show up with his Energy Machine again. I expect Dan Rather still has his.

 

[Wolf359]

Maybe Joe Newman will show up with his Energy Machine again. I expect Dan Rather still has his.

Oh yeah, someone needs to come up with an energy machine that uses zero point energy or involves the Casimir effect.

Newman's energy machine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Zero-point energy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Casimir effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Cujet]

I'm not even sure what you're saying. Have you been following the latest experiments? Some of it does work, the real problem is scaling it up and running it long enough to generate enough power. The theory is there, it's basically the engineering that they're still trying to figure out.

Clearly we can achieve Fusion, we've been able to do so for some time now. What we can't do is contain it.

I'm very clearly stating that I believe inertial containment is the only viable method. That's how stars do it.