Nissan Versa "Needs H-Rated Tires"?
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well guys, I ended up at a different tire store today and spoke with the manager. He told me mostly what many of you have said about how the H rated tire will ride better. He also let me know why it is safer and should handle much better. He even gave me a price break on the H rated CS4 because I was concerned with the treadlife.
The H rated CS4's were had for $432 installed (185/65/15) out the door plus I will get a $50 visa card due to the mail in rebate. Not a bad deal if you ask me!
The H rated CS4's were had for $432 installed (185/65/15) out the door plus I will get a $50 visa card due to the mail in rebate. Not a bad deal if you ask me!
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Allow me to reiterate what fdcg27 said:
While your driving may not include speeds higher than - oh, say, 75 mph, S and T rated tires can fail in spite of staying within the speed limitations.
But H rated tires have a cap ply - and for practical purposes, completely eliminates the risk.
How can a T or S rated tire that's in good condition fail at 75 mph? I assume you aren't talking about hitting something that causes the tire to fail, because any tire is susceptible to that.
I know you've said that tires degrade over time, which I don't think anyone will disagree with. But this statement seems to indicate that a T or S rated tire in good working condition is in danger of failing at any moment on the highway.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'd like to know the reasoning. It just seems like some people in these threads get a little hyperbolic, acting like if you install a T speed rated tire on your car the vehicle will explode only minutes later.
Allow me to reiterate what fdcg27 said:
While your driving may not include speeds higher than - oh, say, 75 mph, S and T rated tires can fail in spite of staying within the speed limitations.
But H rated tires have a cap ply - and for practical purposes, completely eliminates the risk.
How can a T or S rated tire that's in good condition fail at 75 mph? I assume you aren't talking about hitting something that causes the tire to fail, because any tire is susceptible to that.
I know you've said that tires degrade over time, which I don't think anyone will disagree with. But this statement seems to indicate that a T or S rated tire in good working condition is in danger of failing at any moment on the highway.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'd like to know the reasoning. It just seems like some people in these threads get a little hyperbolic, acting like if you install a T speed rated tire on your car the vehicle will explode only minutes later.
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Originally Posted By: DBMaster
The speed ratings of tires have more meaning than just the maximum safe speed. The rating not only relates to heat dissipation capabilities, but also traction. At "normal" speeds an H-rated tire is going to have better grip and handling characteristics that a T-rated tire.
I haven't heard this before. Can you provide any online links or other info? It seems that tread compound/design would play a big part. While I'm sure there are H-rated tires that perform better than a lot of T-rated tires, it seems like traction would depend on more than just the speed rating.
The speed ratings of tires have more meaning than just the maximum safe speed. The rating not only relates to heat dissipation capabilities, but also traction. At "normal" speeds an H-rated tire is going to have better grip and handling characteristics that a T-rated tire.
I haven't heard this before. Can you provide any online links or other info? It seems that tread compound/design would play a big part. While I'm sure there are H-rated tires that perform better than a lot of T-rated tires, it seems like traction would depend on more than just the speed rating.
Speed ratings on tires are not only in relation to the theoretical top speed that tire can achieve. (I say theoretical because their are a lot of variables, ie the tire must be in perfect condition and inflated properly, not overloaded, etc, if everything isn't right that speed rating plummets.)
In this case speed rating is referring more to tire construction, ie H rated tires tend to have a bit stiffer sidewall. Nissan may have wanted to give the light and kind of slab sided Versa a bit more stability on the highway.
In this case speed rating is referring more to tire construction, ie H rated tires tend to have a bit stiffer sidewall. Nissan may have wanted to give the light and kind of slab sided Versa a bit more stability on the highway.
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Many cars with the same engine/transmission combo come in a "sportier" version with lower profile tires....basically same car yet the standard model will have S or T tires and the "sportier" version will have H or above. Nothing to do with top speed, safety etc. Mostly looks IMO.
Of course other models add larger engine, different suspension etc. which would require a higher rated tire. In those cases I would no go lower than what came on the car.
Of course other models add larger engine, different suspension etc. which would require a higher rated tire. In those cases I would no go lower than what came on the car.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Capri,
Do any new cars (not real full-frame trucks) come on tires with less than an H rating anymore?
I haven't seen OEM tires rated less than H in some years.
There are a few - and frankly, given that one of the lessons from the Ford/Firestone thing a few years ago - that tires need to be over specified, just like the other components on a car - I'm surprised there are any at all!
And allow me to address the issue of S and T rated tires failing at speeds below 75 mph:
I think there is a bit of confusion. I am NOT saying the tires are failing due to the speed. I am saying that tires are failing in spite of their being used at speeds well below the rated speed.
I am sure everyone is aware that rubber deteriorates over time. That's the reason why there are warnings about old tires. Included in this is the issue about the stresses that tires expreience - how underinflation and over-loading contribute to tire failures.
But that's stating things in "black and white" terms. This is decidedly about shades of gray. The percenbtage of tires that fail is pretty small - but it is measureable.
What is going on is that the edges of the steel belts experience a lot of stress and that's where a tire failure can start. By putting on a cap ply, the belt edges is not as subjected to as much centrifugal force, plus the cap ply acts like a bandage to keep even failed belt edges from getting worse.
And that's why I recommend H speed rated tires at a minimum.
Capri,
Do any new cars (not real full-frame trucks) come on tires with less than an H rating anymore?
I haven't seen OEM tires rated less than H in some years.
There are a few - and frankly, given that one of the lessons from the Ford/Firestone thing a few years ago - that tires need to be over specified, just like the other components on a car - I'm surprised there are any at all!
And allow me to address the issue of S and T rated tires failing at speeds below 75 mph:
I think there is a bit of confusion. I am NOT saying the tires are failing due to the speed. I am saying that tires are failing in spite of their being used at speeds well below the rated speed.
I am sure everyone is aware that rubber deteriorates over time. That's the reason why there are warnings about old tires. Included in this is the issue about the stresses that tires expreience - how underinflation and over-loading contribute to tire failures.
But that's stating things in "black and white" terms. This is decidedly about shades of gray. The percenbtage of tires that fail is pretty small - but it is measureable.
What is going on is that the edges of the steel belts experience a lot of stress and that's where a tire failure can start. By putting on a cap ply, the belt edges is not as subjected to as much centrifugal force, plus the cap ply acts like a bandage to keep even failed belt edges from getting worse.
And that's why I recommend H speed rated tires at a minimum.
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Here's a really simple version. If you want to have more fun just search for "key to tire speed ratings." It is pretty common knowledge that the speed ratings tell you a lot more than just the maximum speed for which the tire is rated.
http://www.tirebarn.com/Tires+101/Speed+Ratings.html
http://www.tirebarn.com/Tires+101/Speed+Ratings.html
Can only an H rated and above tire have a "cap" ply? I get the impression from reading these posts that only H-rated and above tires have this. I believe the Cooper CS4's T-rated and General RT's have "cap" plies. Does tire weight necessarily indicate whether a tire has a "cap" ply. Example, My 12' Golf came w/Conti Pro Contact tires (H-rated) which only weight 17lbs from my research on these tires. I could not find on Contential's web site whether these tires have "cap" plies or not. (They are H-rated but they are so light weight tires. Do these tires by the fact are H-rated mean they must have a "cap" ply?) Thanks.
Originally Posted By: VicVinegar
Did they have what you wanted in stock? I imagine they are more expensive as well.
I only ask because I had my local tire chain say the same thing to me when I inquired about 80k tires for my Civic (not an Si). They didn't carry the tire I was looking for, and then tried to sell me some V-rated Pirelli saying I would benefit from it. I passed and bought the Michelins somewhere else via Tire Rack.
Checking with Tire Rack, I guess the OE tire is a Conti ProContact that is H rated. That seems a bit ambitious.
Sticky rubber and belts designed for low slip angles in V rated tires don't usually add up to long wear ratings. One would think less squirm would contribute to longer life, and it probably does, but the tradeoff is in the compounding. Here in the frozen north a V rated tire is never going to be used to full speed potential, too many donuts hiding behind bushes even on the rural interstates. V rated tires don't develope max grip in cold weather, either.
Did they have what you wanted in stock? I imagine they are more expensive as well.
I only ask because I had my local tire chain say the same thing to me when I inquired about 80k tires for my Civic (not an Si). They didn't carry the tire I was looking for, and then tried to sell me some V-rated Pirelli saying I would benefit from it. I passed and bought the Michelins somewhere else via Tire Rack.
Checking with Tire Rack, I guess the OE tire is a Conti ProContact that is H rated. That seems a bit ambitious.
Sticky rubber and belts designed for low slip angles in V rated tires don't usually add up to long wear ratings. One would think less squirm would contribute to longer life, and it probably does, but the tradeoff is in the compounding. Here in the frozen north a V rated tire is never going to be used to full speed potential, too many donuts hiding behind bushes even on the rural interstates. V rated tires don't develope max grip in cold weather, either.
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Originally Posted By: sparky123
Can only an H rated and above tire have a "cap" ply? I get the impression from reading these posts that only H-rated and above tires have this. I believe the Cooper CS4's T-rated and General RT's have "cap" plies. Does tire weight necessarily indicate whether a tire has a "cap" ply. Example, My 12' Golf came w/Conti Pro Contact tires (H-rated) which only weight 17lbs from my research on these tires. I could not find on Contential's web site whether these tires have "cap" plies or not. (They are H-rated but they are so light weight tires. Do these tires by the fact are H-rated mean they must have a "cap" ply?) Thanks.
For practical purposes, tires have to have a cap ply to get an H speed rating. Needless to say, higher speeds require AT LEAST one cap ply.
- and it gets a little complicated here, so bare with me:
S and T rated tires may or may not have cap plies - but the presence of a cap ply is sometimes needed in order to pass lower speed rated tests - particularly for larger tire sizes. (I'm not talking rim diameter, here.)
Some tire manufacturers will put cap plies on S and T rated - even in small tire sizes. Good for them.
Because I want to make a simple to remember recommendation, I use the shortcut to H speed rating, but the truth is that a cap ply is what I am driving at.
Weight? Cap plies hardly weigh anything, so you can't go by that.
If you want to know if a particular tire has a cap ply - ask the manufacturer!! It's required by law on the sidewall of the tire so it's no secret.
Can only an H rated and above tire have a "cap" ply? I get the impression from reading these posts that only H-rated and above tires have this. I believe the Cooper CS4's T-rated and General RT's have "cap" plies. Does tire weight necessarily indicate whether a tire has a "cap" ply. Example, My 12' Golf came w/Conti Pro Contact tires (H-rated) which only weight 17lbs from my research on these tires. I could not find on Contential's web site whether these tires have "cap" plies or not. (They are H-rated but they are so light weight tires. Do these tires by the fact are H-rated mean they must have a "cap" ply?) Thanks.
For practical purposes, tires have to have a cap ply to get an H speed rating. Needless to say, higher speeds require AT LEAST one cap ply.
- and it gets a little complicated here, so bare with me:
S and T rated tires may or may not have cap plies - but the presence of a cap ply is sometimes needed in order to pass lower speed rated tests - particularly for larger tire sizes. (I'm not talking rim diameter, here.)
Some tire manufacturers will put cap plies on S and T rated - even in small tire sizes. Good for them.
Because I want to make a simple to remember recommendation, I use the shortcut to H speed rating, but the truth is that a cap ply is what I am driving at.
Weight? Cap plies hardly weigh anything, so you can't go by that.
If you want to know if a particular tire has a cap ply - ask the manufacturer!! It's required by law on the sidewall of the tire so it's no secret.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
And that's why I recommend H speed rated tires at a minimum.
Does your recommendation apply to winter tires as well?
The reason I ask is that in my experience, the H-rated winter tires are geared more towards dry/wet performance and less towards snow traction. At least that seemed to have been the case in the past. My current winter tires are Q-rated.
And that's why I recommend H speed rated tires at a minimum.
Does your recommendation apply to winter tires as well?
The reason I ask is that in my experience, the H-rated winter tires are geared more towards dry/wet performance and less towards snow traction. At least that seemed to have been the case in the past. My current winter tires are Q-rated.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
And allow me to address the issue of S and T rated tires failing at speeds below 75 mph:
I think there is a bit of confusion. I am NOT saying the tires are failing due to the speed. I am saying that tires are failing in spite of their being used at speeds well below the rated speed.
I am sure everyone is aware that rubber deteriorates over time. That's the reason why there are warnings about old tires. Included in this is the issue about the stresses that tires expreience - how underinflation and over-loading contribute to tire failures.
But that's stating things in "black and white" terms. This is decidedly about shades of gray. The percenbtage of tires that fail is pretty small - but it is measureable.
I thought that is what you were getting at. Old tires, under inflation, over loading and other things can cause tires to fail below the speed rating. I 100% agree.
Thanks for clarifying.
I still feel pretty safe riding on my T-rated Hankook H727 tires.
And allow me to address the issue of S and T rated tires failing at speeds below 75 mph:
I think there is a bit of confusion. I am NOT saying the tires are failing due to the speed. I am saying that tires are failing in spite of their being used at speeds well below the rated speed.
I am sure everyone is aware that rubber deteriorates over time. That's the reason why there are warnings about old tires. Included in this is the issue about the stresses that tires expreience - how underinflation and over-loading contribute to tire failures.
But that's stating things in "black and white" terms. This is decidedly about shades of gray. The percenbtage of tires that fail is pretty small - but it is measureable.
I thought that is what you were getting at. Old tires, under inflation, over loading and other things can cause tires to fail below the speed rating. I 100% agree.
Thanks for clarifying.
I still feel pretty safe riding on my T-rated Hankook H727 tires.
Are cap plies expensive? I've been looking around my driveway: 5 cars all shod with junkyard-whatevers. Nearly all are H-rated or better.
Even a cheap tire is expensive, I understand from materials. Have they given up on sub-H-tires? My former employer (tire store) online shows their cheezy "sumic" 195/60/15s have an H-rating, and those are pretty ghetto treads.
Even a cheap tire is expensive, I understand from materials. Have they given up on sub-H-tires? My former employer (tire store) online shows their cheezy "sumic" 195/60/15s have an H-rating, and those are pretty ghetto treads.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
If you want to know if a particular tire has a cap ply - ask the manufacturer!! It's required by law on the sidewall of the tire so it's no secret.
What does this marking look like on a sidewall, and what wording would we expect to see to indicate this?
I think the OP has a very valid point questioning whether or not the Versa truly needs an H-rated tire. I am certainly not a tire expert, but I suspect some factors that lead Nissan to shod these with the H-rated tires might have included some of these:
* An easy way to stiffen up the handling for a specific market or trim level, without touching the suspension, this is inherent in both the lower profile tire, and higher speed rating, the two of which are linked.
* Marketing. All about perception, the fact that it has lower profile tires, and H-rated for those who pay attention to that, will lead a prospective buyer to feel they are getting a car capable of more than it actually can do. Kind of like a speedometer that reads up to 240 km/h / 150 mph on a little econobox. No way that needle is ever likely to be able to edge past 100 mph under the best conditions in reality.
There is a great chance that the base trim level in some markets only specify S or T rated tires. I've seen this on other non-performance vehicles, I had a 2002 Mazda Protege ES, and tires on that, depending on specific options were a 15" V-rated, or a 16" V-rated. The base car, with all suspension bits being identical to some of the V-rated shod cars, were just S-rated 14" tires. Same deal with the Rondo my brother has. All trim levels in North America came with H-rated tires. In many markets, the standard tire was either S or T (I forget which).
Look into the Versa, at other trim levels in North America, or as equipped for other markets. I suspect you'll find similar.
Of course switching speed ratings will end up having an effect on how it handles now, regardless of the base tire, and so long as you are aware of these changes and know what to expect, then I can say you could consider the lower speed rating tires. Of course, add to that CapriRacer's recommendation for H-rated, based on the tire construction for the added cap ply. A factor you should also consider. While I don't disagree this is better, I can say that I have never had a problem with S or T rated tires failing, but then I also pick tires carefully, maintain them carefully and certainly don't leave them on the car longer than they should be.
If you want to know if a particular tire has a cap ply - ask the manufacturer!! It's required by law on the sidewall of the tire so it's no secret.
What does this marking look like on a sidewall, and what wording would we expect to see to indicate this?
I think the OP has a very valid point questioning whether or not the Versa truly needs an H-rated tire. I am certainly not a tire expert, but I suspect some factors that lead Nissan to shod these with the H-rated tires might have included some of these:
* An easy way to stiffen up the handling for a specific market or trim level, without touching the suspension, this is inherent in both the lower profile tire, and higher speed rating, the two of which are linked.
* Marketing. All about perception, the fact that it has lower profile tires, and H-rated for those who pay attention to that, will lead a prospective buyer to feel they are getting a car capable of more than it actually can do. Kind of like a speedometer that reads up to 240 km/h / 150 mph on a little econobox. No way that needle is ever likely to be able to edge past 100 mph under the best conditions in reality.
There is a great chance that the base trim level in some markets only specify S or T rated tires. I've seen this on other non-performance vehicles, I had a 2002 Mazda Protege ES, and tires on that, depending on specific options were a 15" V-rated, or a 16" V-rated. The base car, with all suspension bits being identical to some of the V-rated shod cars, were just S-rated 14" tires. Same deal with the Rondo my brother has. All trim levels in North America came with H-rated tires. In many markets, the standard tire was either S or T (I forget which).
Look into the Versa, at other trim levels in North America, or as equipped for other markets. I suspect you'll find similar.
Of course switching speed ratings will end up having an effect on how it handles now, regardless of the base tire, and so long as you are aware of these changes and know what to expect, then I can say you could consider the lower speed rating tires. Of course, add to that CapriRacer's recommendation for H-rated, based on the tire construction for the added cap ply. A factor you should also consider. While I don't disagree this is better, I can say that I have never had a problem with S or T rated tires failing, but then I also pick tires carefully, maintain them carefully and certainly don't leave them on the car longer than they should be.
Thanks for the info also Capri.
stephen9666, RE: H727 - I'm needing to get a pair for my ride and just noticed that, although T rated, they have a nylon cap ply.
stephen9666, RE: H727 - I'm needing to get a pair for my ride and just noticed that, although T rated, they have a nylon cap ply.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Does your recommendation apply to winter tires as well?
The reason I ask is that in my experience, the H-rated winter tires are geared more towards dry/wet performance and less towards snow traction. At least that seemed to have been the case in the past. My current winter tires are Q-rated.
I don't have a problem with Winter tires being Q speed rated, because of the conditions.
HOWEVER, anyone who spends a some time on the interstates in winter ought to invest in H or higher winter tires.
Does your recommendation apply to winter tires as well?
The reason I ask is that in my experience, the H-rated winter tires are geared more towards dry/wet performance and less towards snow traction. At least that seemed to have been the case in the past. My current winter tires are Q-rated.
I don't have a problem with Winter tires being Q speed rated, because of the conditions.
HOWEVER, anyone who spends a some time on the interstates in winter ought to invest in H or higher winter tires.
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