Nissan Frontier 10W30 Amsoil ATM

[MolaKule]

Here is the result of Used Oil Analysis. Engine accumulated 37,797 miles, oil had 4,935 miles on it. Oil is Amsoil 10W30 ATM, no additives. No consumption on any oil since new. Oil added was 1 qt. due to sampling + filter change, 35,953. 99% highway miles in 100+ F weather at 75 mph, 3,200 RPM. Analysis by Oil Analyzers Inc. Filter is Amsoil SDF20. Engine stock. 2.4L I4 16 valve. No mods.

First number was sampling at 1,151 miles to provide baseline, New Number's is second Np..

Physical Properties:
Gly - Neg. (Neg.)
% Water - Fuel - Vicosity at 100 C - 11.3 10.8
% Solids - Tr Tr
Oil Degradation:
Soot - NA NA
% Oxidation - 10.0% 10.0% Out of 100%
% Nox – 12.9% 22.9% Out of 100%
TBN – 11.4 7.6
TAN - NA NA
Spectroanalysis: ppm
Fe - 4 10
Cr - 0 0
Pb - 3 15
Cu - 2 8
Sn - 1 2
Al - 5 6
Ni - 0 0
Ag - 0 0
Mn - 4 36
Si - 4 9
Boron - 37 30
Sodium - 5 19
Magnesium - 356 362
Ca - 3174 3182
Ba - 0 0
P - 1281 1261
Zn - 1590 1540
Mo – 0 10
Ti - 0 0
V - 0 0
Cd - 0 0

Have since changed to Mobil 1 SuperSyn 10w30 and installed new filter.

 

[Patman]

It'll be interesting to see the SuperSyn results! I'm not impressed with the viscosity change of the Amsoil, I thought it was more stable than this. In just 5k it seems to have thinned out a lot, even though it's still well within the 30wt range, it suggests this oil may not be suitable for those 25k intervals, not in this vehicle anyways. The TBN also dropped pretty fast. It is odd that these things would happen with a primarily highway driven vehicle, which isn't that hard on the oil. It looks like a lot of the moly from the rings has gotten into the oil, based on the difference from 0 to 10 between the samples. Is this a normal amount of moly to come from rings though? It sounds a bit high, based on the fact that my Firebird only showed 1ppm in 2400 miles of hard driving. Although I guess different engines will vary here also.

 

[TooSlick]

Molecule,

Have you tested the Amsoil 10w30 or 5w30 before in this engine? Everything looks fine except there is more TBN depletion than I would expect at only 5000 miles. I have a 2.4L toyota engine and Amsoil holds up much better than this. At 12k and 15k miles, I had TBN values of 8.4 and 7.2 respectively - this is with the Series 2000, 0w30 and Series 3000, 5w30 in two different samples. I generally use a TBN of 4.0 as the lower limit in gas engines and a limit of 6.0 in diesels, so you could certainly run this oil 50% longer with no problem. It would also be interesting to know the TBN on changeout of your previous batch of oil? If you overextend a run of oil, you end up with acidic residues in the crankcase. This causes fairly rapid TBN depletion with the next batch you run - so the TBN depletion tends to be non-linear.

Ted

 

[MolaKule]

I didn't like the increase in the NOx, the TBN, or the basic wear metals. I am glad I changed it when I did. However, it has been VERRRYY hot here and the AC has been running constantly. And as I stated, this engines beats the the... out of the oil, even much worse than my modified 350 in the '86 Burb.

It just goes to show how different engines treat oils differently.

JJubla,

I plan to take the Mobil 1 10W30 SS to approx. 5K. Will have an analysis of the Mobil 1 10W30 at approx. => 1k in about two weeks.

The plan is to run Schaeffer's as well after the Mobil 1 test. I didn't want to run Schaeffer's until the last, since it has quite a bit of moly, and the moly/antimony additive might skew the actual wear results if I used that first. I will be putting Schaeffer's into the '92 Burb here in the near future.

After those tests are complete, I want to run Mobil 1 10W30 with the Schaeffer's #132 and see if there is an improvement over just the Mobil 1.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
I didn't like the increase in the NOx, the TBN, or the basic wear metals. I am glad I changed it when I did. However, it has been VERRRYY hot here and the AC has been running constantly. And as I stated, this engines beats the the... out of the oil, even much worse than my modified 350 in the '86 Burb.

It just goes to show how different engines treat oils differently.

---

This is a good point! This is why more people need to do oil analysis too, instead of just relying on other data to make their oil interval decisions. When you see how your driving patterns and engine conditions treat the oil, only then can you truly make the right choice in oil intervals. The average person still sticks with the 3k interval since they feel it's the safe bet for them, but for us complete oil nuts, we'd like to push the envelope just a tad more.

 

[MolaKule]

Bill,
"This could be a weird trend with the KA24DE engine used in the Altimas (pre '02), Frontiers, etc. One of my spreadsheet analysis results is on a 2000 Altima, with Pennzoil and Fram filters "every 3,000 miles" or so. This Altima had 21k on it when Amsoil and an Amsoil SDF-13 filter were put in it. It went 10k, with a new analysis. It was awful: TBN 3.5, Iron over 100, high sodium, silicon near 60, etc. Definitely the worst analysis I've seen on a car.

I think the characteristics of this engine have a lot to do with the small sump capacity (3.5 qts.) and the fact its a twin cam, 16 valve engine. The power density is fairly high as well.

 

[bill99gxe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
Bill,
"This could be a weird trend with the KA24DE engine used in the Altimas (pre '02), Frontiers, etc. One of my spreadsheet analysis results is on a 2000 Altima, with Pennzoil and Fram filters "every 3,000 miles" or so. This Altima had 21k on it when Amsoil and an Amsoil SDF-13 filter were put in it. It went 10k, with a new analysis. It was awful: TBN 3.5, Iron over 100, high sodium, silicon near 60, etc. Definitely the worst analysis I've seen on a car.

I think the characteristics of this engine have a lot to do with the small sump capacity (3.5 qts.) and the fact its a twin cam, 16 valve engine. The power density is fairly high as well.

---

Seems kind of similar to the way Honda VTEC 4 cylinders are, although an H22 I've seen results on actually wasn't bad at all.....

Low overall capacity + puny filter = extended drains are bad

 

[MolaKule]

bill99gxe,

Regarding the Filter. The SDF20 was the largest filter I could find with the correct
threading and correct by-pass valve pressure.

 

[bill99gxe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
bill99gxe,

Regarding the Filter. The SDF20 was the largest filter I could find with the correct
threading and correct by-pass valve pressure.

---

Did you look at the specs on the SDF-36 and SDF-44. Both should work thread-wise. I don't have their pressure ratings off-hand. But they may not even physically fit, either.....

 

[MolaKule]

Bill,

I think I did. I will borrow my BIL's Hasting's filter book and check that out to make sure.

Get back to ya!

 

[SteveD2]

None of these other Amsoil filters have the correct bypass valve setting. The SDF13 has a 12-16 psid bypass; the Baldwin recommended filter has the same rating. The SDF20 is 18-20 psid, SDF36 = 7-9 psid, SDF44 = 18-20 psid. Does it really matter? I don't know.

Does Oil Analyzers, Inc., have a good reputation? They're owned by Al Amatuzio, the owner of Amsoil. Are they totally objective?

Ken

 

[bill99gxe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ted Kublin:
Molecule,

Have you tested the Amsoil 10w30 or 5w30 before in this engine? Everything looks fine except there is more TBN depletion than I would expect at only 5000 miles. I have a 2.4L toyota engine and Amsoil holds up much better than this. At 12k and 15k miles, I had TBN values of 8.4 and 7.2 respectively - this is with the Series 2000, 0w30 and Series 3000, 5w30 in two different samples. I generally use a TBN of 4.0 as the lower limit in gas engines and a limit of 6.0 in diesels, so you could certainly run this oil 50% longer with no problem. It would also be interesting to know the TBN on changeout of your previous batch of oil? If you overextend a run of oil, you end up with acidic residues in the crankcase. This causes fairly rapid TBN depletion with the next batch you run - so the TBN depletion tends to be non-linear.

Ted

---

Ted and MolaKule,

This could be a weird trend with the KA24DE engine used in the Altimas (pre '02), Frontiers, etc.

One of my spreadsheet analysis results is on a 2000 Altima, with Pennzoil and Fram filters "every 3,000 miles" or so. This Altima had 21k on it when Amsoil and an Amsoil SDF-13 filter were put in it. It went 10k, with a new analysis. It was awful: TBN 3.5, Iron over 100, high sodium, silicon near 60, etc. Definitely one of the poorer analyses I've seen on a car.

The KA24 seems to be fairly stressful on an oil. The best I could recommend is a bigger filter, as the SDF-13 and SDF-20 are tiny. In the Amsoil line, the SDF-44 *may* should work. Also, the STP S6941 ($7), may work as well. All are dimensioned slightly different, and I don't want to definitely say one will work as I have no direct experience changing oil on the KA24s.

The KA24DE oil filters from '98 and up are thread compatible with VQ30DE Maxima filters, which is why I'm familiar with some possible oversized substitutes.

[ September 11, 2002, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: bill99gxe ]

 

[MolaKule]

TedK,

No extended oil drains with any of the previous oils. I started out with Amsoil 0W30 at 100 (engine) miles, then it had Amsoil 5W30 HDD, until about 18 months ago. None of the oils ever went past 3.5k, so there should not be acids left behind that would reduce the TBN this much.

This in my view is why used Oil Analysis is so valuable. It will tell you how the engine/oil combination reacts.

Another reason as well, advertising notwithstanding, that one should not belive blanket statements about ALL oils being capable of extended oil drain intervals for ALL engines.

 

[Patman]

That is why Amsoi's blanket statement of one year or 25,000 miles is so foolish. I think very few situations would allow that kind of interval.

 

[TooSlick]

Molecule,

Did you do any oil analysis testing of the amsoil 0w30 or Series 3000 formulations in your Nissan? These are primarily the oils I have been running and that my customers have been using for the past six years. I have had no problems running 15,000 mile/1 year change intervals with either of these oils in several different engines.

Ken,

I have gotten very consistent results (from the same vehicles) back from Oil Analyzers on a number of tests done over the last five years. I do think that Terry does a better job of explaining the results if you are unfamiliar with oil analysis and what acceptable limits should be. The amsoil filters work very well ...I've run them up to 12,000 miles and the solids levels in the oil stay pretty low. The bypass relief valve setting is largely determined by the type of filter media used and the viscosity of the oil (particularly on cold starts) also comes into play.

Ted

 

[bill99gxe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken:
None of these other Amsoil filters have the correct bypass valve setting. The SDF13 has a 12-16 psid bypass; the Baldwin recommended filter has the same rating. The SDF20 is 18-20 psid, SDF36 = 7-9 psid, SDF44 = 18-20 psid. Does it really matter? I don't know.

---

Yeah, that's the interesting part. You could look at it from a pressure/volume relationship and say "Since the SDF-13 is rated for 12-16 psi, wouldn't the SDF36 which is x% larger in volume only need 7-9?"

On the other hand, the oversize app for the SDF-20 (which is the SDF-44) is rated for the same bypass valve pressure......

That being said, it looks to me like those using the SDF-13 wouldn't be well served going to the SDF-36 with such a low setting to get it to go into bypass....

I guess I need to e-mail Patman to get some ratings on some Purolators....

quote:

---

Does Oil Analyzers, Inc., have a good reputation? They're owned by Al Amatuzio, the owner of Amsoil. Are they totally objective?

Ken

---

Oil Analyzers is pretty thorough for the money, although their comments as to what you should do are quite vague and don't mean much unless you are experienced.

From a raw mpirical data standpoint, they are hard to beat.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bill99gxe:

I guess I need to e-mail Patman to get some ratings on some Purolators....

---

No problem! The catalog is at home, so send it to my home email address (in my profile) and I'll look up whatever specs you need tonight for you. That catalog has really come in handy! I should email all the oil filter makers and get one from each!

 

[MolaKule]

Ted, (This is a repost):

"Did you do any oil analysis testing of the amsoil 0w30 or Series 3000 formulations in your Nissan?"

I changed to the 0W30 at 100 engine miles, and then to the 5W30 HDD. I changed the oils at 3.7k intervals for the initial warranty period of 36,000 miles. Changed to 10W30 about 6 months ago when the temp started to peak here in DOO-DAH land and when the 5W30 HDD started showing signs of darkening very quickly. No analysis done on the previous oils. The 10W30 ATM was the longest oil to run in this engine.

I seriously doubt the 0W30 could have gone past 7k, by comparison, since the 10W30 was formulated to withstand the high temps of turbo operation. The 5W30 HDD maybe, since its TBN package is very robust. Maybe one of the Nissan boards have more information on some of the Amsoils, but for me, I would not have used the 10W30 past 7k in this engine.

"These are primarily the oils I have been running and that my customers have been using for the past six years. I have had no problems running 15,000 mile/1 year change intervals with either of these oils in several different engines."

Waht do your customer's used oil analysis show? It would be interesting to see these analyses!

 

[TooSlick]

Molecule,

The 10w30 (ATM) and the 5w30 (ASL) are basically the same additive formulation with slightly different basestocks. The "turbo formulated" label goes back to the original product introduction in 1984 and has no special significance. At that time the only other gas engine oils available were the 10w-40 (AMO) and the original 20w-50 Racing Oil (ARO). So the 10w30 was marketed as the preferred product for gas engine turbos, where the primary recommendation was an SAE 10w30 (there were no
5w30 or 0w30 grades commonly available at that time).

Other than a slight difference in the molecular weight of the two basestocks, ATM and ASL are the same formulation.