New shop manager here with some oil questions.

[Fordtrucktexan]

Hello everyone

Not long ago I was assigned an area that involves a lube shop. Most customers spring for the bottom line oil/filter change, but a few ask questions and obviously want what's best for their vehicle, without breaking the bank. Google has been my friend, and has led me to the site many times (a great resource btw).

Now I realize oil is pretty specific, what is the 'cat's meow' for one vehicle, isn't necessarily the best for another. However, if I were to post a list of common questions, and common vehicles we see, would ya'll be able to assist in providing information?

Oh, and keep in mind most of my customers aren't impressed by an oil that meets a certain spec, made from a particular base stock, or has "titanium" in it. They basically need to know why it's better, what it does for their vehicle, and is it worth the cost.

Thank you in advance...

 

[crazyoildude]

what oils do u carry?

 

[Fordtrucktexan]

LOL, it'd be easier to tell you what we didn't carry. Pretty much all the big names, in their conventional/synthetic/extended performance/high mileage variants.

I'd rather not name my company for privacy reasons, but I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to figure out.

 

[michaelluscher]

What's your loss leader?
Bulk off brand 5w-20/30 and a Group 7 screwed on for $19.99?

 

[Fordtrucktexan]

Can't comment on loss leader.

Bulk - we provide Penn 5w20/30, Penn HM, QS 5w20/30 and 10w30 (iirc), and oddly, Castrol Edge w/Syntec 10w-40 (not popular). Not sure what a Group 7 is, but we use a bulk Fram filter unless customer requests another, or it's a unique application. Our cheapest change is around $30.

 

[HKPolice]

As long as you're using bulk oil from major brands, it's good enough if they follow recommended intervals. Post the questions!

 

[Fordtrucktexan]

Here's a few off the top of my head. As much as I love technical answers, let's try to keep things in layman's terms. These are fairly general, I will post year/make/model specific questions as I remember them.

1. What are some of the biggest benefits to using a synthetic oil over conventional?

2. My owner's manual calls for 5w20, but I put in some 10w30 (or other oil) that was on sale last time. Should I switch back, and will this hurt anything? (Probably the most common question)

3. Does switching from conventional to synthetic hurt anything?

4. What is the difference between regular Pennzoil and Quaker State? (we offer both in bulk, charging a few dollars more for Penn)

5. Will running a heavier oil reduce engine wear and quiet the valvetrain? (We have a few regular customers that insist on 20w-50 in their vehicles, for this reason)

Those are a few I can think of at the moment. Thank you again!

 

[Clevy]

Benefits.

1:Longer drains. Better pumpability in extreme cold,

2: thicker oil causes more drag on the engine and will hurt fuel economy in a minor way. Other than that there is no harm going to a thicker oil.

3:There is no harm switching from conventional to synthetic and back again. If it was an issue then synthetic blends wouldn't exist.


4:there are slight differences in the formulation however in reality I doubt one is better than the other in service. Pennzoil's claim to fame is their cleaning ability,so if you've gotta focus on a selling point use that.

5: that is a tough one. No a thicker oil won't increase or decrease wear but it will increase drag,which costs more fuel.
Now if an engine is operated in conditions where oil temps become elevated and stay there then a thinner oil will have a weaker oil film compared to a thicker oil,so before going thicker a person would have to look at oil temps and see if they are significantly elevated in relation to what's considered normal.


For example my charger RT says use a 5w-20,and I do,in the winter. Oil temps rarely crest 220f during winter operation.
In the summer I use a 0w-40 euro spec oil because I see oil temps of 265f and higher.
Oil temps are the determining factor when using a different grade than specified by the oem.

Today's normal drivers don't require anything thicker than the eom specifies however because of how the engine is operated some people do need to go thicker.
So as far as wear goes that's a real hard one in that you'd have to know how the engine is operated before making a judgement.
In some cases thicker may elevate wear,in other it may lessen wear. So use the oem recommendation as your starting point. If it's decided that the engine is operated in that gray area called severe service then you might need thicker oil.
A 20w-50 is great in a harley,not in any engine built today for the most part.
And considering the fantastic euro spec oils available to us in the 0w-40 flavour there isn't much need to go any thicker than that.


Valvetrain noise can be lessened by using a conventional vs a syn in the same grade and yes valvetrain noise can be lessened by going thicker however noise doesn't equate to more wear.
In my experience M1 is noisy in engines I use it in when compared to other brands however that noise certainly doesn't imply that there is more wear happening.
Noise is just noise. Today's high revving 4 cylinder engines are noisy. They also last nearly forever,so tell your customers noise doesn't equal wear.
Send them to bitog for a class or 2.

 

[HTSS_TR]

1. What are some of the biggest benefits to using a synthetic oil over conventional?

The main benefits are: Extreme temperatures and extended oil change interval

2. My owner's manual calls for 5w20, but I put in some 10w30 (or other oil) that was on sale last time. Should I switch back, and will this hurt anything? (Probably the most common question)

No, it will not cause any problem so switch back to recommended grade as soon as possible.

3. Does switching from conventional to synthetic hurt anything?

Again, no. You can switch between synthetic and conventional all the time if you want to. Just make sure don't do very long oil change interval with conventional such as 10-15k miles.

4. What is the difference between regular Pennzoil and Quaker State? (we offer both in bulk, charging a few dollars more for Penn)

I don't know, but I think Quaker State is good up to recommend oil change interval stated in the owner manual, so is Pennzoil. Pennzoil is usually costs more at retail because of mostly marketing/advertising.


5. Will running a heavier oil reduce engine wear and quiet the valvetrain? (We have a few regular customers that insist on 20w-50 in their vehicles, for this reason)

It depends on engines, some engines is quieter with thinner oil and some engines is opposite. There is no study to affirm that using thicker oil than recommended will reduce wear.

The engine in my E430 is much quieter with xW20 and xW30 than M1 0W40 which is recommended by MB.

 

[aa1986]

Originally Posted By: Fordtrucktexan
Oh, and keep in mind most of my customers aren't impressed by an oil that meets a certain spec, made from a particular base stock, or has "titanium" in it. They basically need to know why it's better, what it does for their vehicle, and is it worth the cost.


Your customers may not be impressed by an oil that meets a certain spec, but if you really want to make your life simple and do the right thing for your customer, all you need to do is find what each vehicle officially requires, and then use an oil that meets that spec.

Why? Because that spec means the manufacturer has devised tests that assure longevity and performance and if the oil is approved, the oil company has paid to run those tests on the oil they are selling.

For most Euro owners, this means that they should be impressed with that 5qt jug of M1 0w40 you sell at the $20-$30 range, because in almost all cases that is going to perform markedly better than other oils including 20w50.

For GM owners, the dexos oils are a step above regular oils as well.

As to the differences between different brands that meet the same spec or between conventional and synthetic. Well there is no hard and fast rule. If they meet the spec, they will perform so long as they are run in a looked after engine and as per manufacturer recommended intervals.

But if you want to generalize, theoretically synthetics should last longer, and higher priced synthetics from the same manufacturer should also be more robust than their other products. For example, Pennzoil Platinum returns a slightly better virgin oil analysis than Quaker State Ultimate Durability. M1 EP is guaranteed to 15,000 miles vs 10,000 miles for regular M1. So the primary advantage to running synthetic vs synthetic blend vs conventional, and in some cases premium synthetics over regular synthetics eg M1 instead of your SuperTech, would be if the owner is lax with coming back for the oil changes as per the manufacturer interval.

So the answer I would give customers is that all oils that meet spec are going to perform similar to each other so long as you come back at the manufacturer recommended interval including determining if you fall under severe service. If you think you will not come back on time, then consider buying a more expensive synthetic. If you think you will come back on time, then why don't you just rotate between different oils that meet your vehicle's requirement and see which one your butt dino prefers.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: aa1986
Originally Posted By: Fordtrucktexan
Oh, and keep in mind most of my customers aren't impressed by an oil that meets a certain spec, made from a particular base stock, or has "titanium" in it. They basically need to know why it's better, what it does for their vehicle, and is it worth the cost.


Your customers may not be impressed by an oil that meets a certain spec, but if you really want to make your life simple and do the right thing for your customer, all you need to do is find what each vehicle officially requires, and then use an oil that meets that spec.

Why? Because that spec means the manufacturer has devised tests that assure longevity and performance and if the oil is approved, the oil company has paid to run those tests on the oil they are selling.

For most Euro owners, this means that they should be impressed with that 5qt jug of M1 0w40 you sell at the $20-$30 range, because in almost all cases that is going to perform markedly better than other oils including 20w50.

For GM owners, the dexos oils are a step above regular oils as well.

As to the differences between different brands that meet the same spec or between conventional and synthetic. Well there is no hard and fast rule. If they meet the spec, they will perform so long as they are run in a looked after engine and as per manufacturer recommended intervals.

But if you want to generalize, theoretically synthetics should last longer, and higher priced synthetics from the same manufacturer should also be more robust than their other products. For example, Pennzoil Platinum returns a slightly better virgin oil analysis than Quaker State Ultimate Durability. M1 EP is guaranteed to 15,000 miles vs 10,000 miles for regular M1. So the primary advantage to running synthetic vs synthetic blend vs conventional, and in some cases premium synthetics over regular synthetics eg M1 instead of your SuperTech, would be if the owner is lax with coming back for the oil changes as per the manufacturer interval.

So the answer I would give customers is that all oils that meet spec are going to perform similar to each other so long as you come back at the manufacturer recommended interval including determining if you fall under severe service. If you think you will not come back on time, then consider buying a more expensive synthetic. If you think you will come back on time, then why don't you just rotate between different oils and see which one your butt dino prefers.


Good answer.


Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
1. What are some of the biggest benefits to using a synthetic oil over conventional?

The main benefits are: Extreme temperatures and extended oil change interval

2. My owner's manual calls for 5w20, but I put in some 10w30 (or other oil) that was on sale last time. Should I switch back, and will this hurt anything? (Probably the most common question)

No, it will not cause any problem so switch back to recommended grade as soon as possible.

3. Does switching from conventional to synthetic hurt anything?

Again, no. You can switch between synthetic and conventional all the time if you want to. Just make sure don't do very long oil change interval with conventional such as 10-15k miles.

4. What is the difference between regular Pennzoil and Quaker State? (we offer both in bulk, charging a few dollars more for Penn)

I don't know, but I think Quaker State is good up to recommend oil change interval stated in the owner manual, so is Pennzoil. Pennzoil is usually costs more at retail because of mostly marketing/advertising.


5. Will running a heavier oil reduce engine wear and quiet the valvetrain? (We have a few regular customers that insist on 20w-50 in their vehicles, for this reason)

It depends on engines, some engines is quieter with thinner oil and some engines is opposite. There is no study to affirm that using thicker oil than recommended will reduce wear.

The engine in my E430 is much quieter with xW20 and xW30 than M1 0W40 which is recommended by MB.



Really?

It's less noisy on thinner oils. Now that is very interesting information,and more evidence that blanket statements wont keep you warm at night.

Interesting to say the least.

There's no hard and fast rules I guess when it comes to lubricants. There are too many variables to make a blanket statement so each application must be considered on a case by case basis.

 

[Texan4Life]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Benefits.

1:Longer drains. Better pumpability in extreme cold,

2: thicker oil causes more drag on the engine and will hurt fuel economy in a minor way. Other than that there is no harm going to a thicker oil.

3:There is no harm switching from conventional to synthetic and back again. If it was an issue then synthetic blends wouldn't exist.


4:there are slight differences in the formulation however in reality I doubt one is better than the other in service. Pennzoil's claim to fame is their cleaning ability,so if you've gotta focus on a selling point use that.

5: that is a tough one. No a thicker oil won't increase or decrease wear but it will increase drag,which costs more fuel.
Now if an engine is operated in conditions where oil temps become elevated and stay there then a thinner oil will have a weaker oil film compared to a thicker oil,so before going thicker a person would have to look at oil temps and see if they are significantly elevated in relation to what's considered normal.


For example my charger RT says use a 5w-20,and I do,in the winter. Oil temps rarely crest 220f during winter operation.
In the summer I use a 0w-40 euro spec oil because I see oil temps of 265f and higher.
Oil temps are the determining factor when using a different grade than specified by the oem.

Today's normal drivers don't require anything thicker than the eom specifies however because of how the engine is operated some people do need to go thicker.
So as far as wear goes that's a real hard one in that you'd have to know how the engine is operated before making a judgement.
In some cases thicker may elevate wear,in other it may lessen wear. So use the oem recommendation as your starting point. If it's decided that the engine is operated in that gray area called severe service then you might need thicker oil.
A 20w-50 is great in a harley,not in any engine built today for the most part.
And considering the fantastic euro spec oils available to us in the 0w-40 flavour there isn't much need to go any thicker than that.


Valvetrain noise can be lessened by using a conventional vs a syn in the same grade and yes valvetrain noise can be lessened by going thicker however noise doesn't equate to more wear.
In my experience M1 is noisy in engines I use it in when compared to other brands however that noise certainly doesn't imply that there is more wear happening.
Noise is just noise. Today's high revving 4 cylinder engines are noisy. They also last nearly forever,so tell your customers noise doesn't equal wear.
Send them to bitog for a class or 2.


+1 well said

 

[dlundblad]

Any SM rated oil changed at the factory recommended intervals will keep that engine clean. Change the filter too of course. This site has proven to me that filter efficiency isnt everything. (Look up efficiency of Toyota OEM filters.. They are roughly 50%)

Might not hurt to have them use the suggested severe service intervals since you really don't know their driving habits. Plus short intervals wont be as bad if the customers dont check their oil.. which I am willing to best most do not.

Best thing you can tell the customers if they start asking questions is that they should get their oil to temperature for 20+ minutes on the highway about once a week to keep moisture out of the oil.

 

[Oil Changer]

I thank you for caring enough to educate yourself. Good for you.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I thank you for caring enough to educate yourself. Good for you.


x100000. Too many shop guys dont give a hoot about their customers.

 

[eljefino]

I worked at a tire shop one winter and we had a 300 gallon tank of 5w30 and used "pronto" chinese filters. I re-interviewed recently and was pleased they moved to 55 gal barrels of Peak semi-syn 5w30, 5w20, and maybe one other grade. They use cheapo O'reillys filters now. I felt like a tool putting the 5w30 in camrys that called for 5/20. Interestingly, I saw tons of corollas and camrys but never a prius-- they draw a different crowd, maybe one more dealer-loyal.

My question for you is, do you have some sort of wall poster/ cheat sheet for the techs on OLM reset procedures? Some (hondas) were a hassle, and we were expected to be born knowing them all.

 

[Fordtrucktexan]

Thank you everyone for your excellent replies so far.

Actually, the shop has it's own manager, but he is also somewhat new in his position, but has extensive automotive repair experience. I took over a larger area and the shop is one aspect, and I'm convinced that just a little more product knowledge will help the team working in this area. Our company goes a long way to educate us on shop procedures and vehicle information, but the actual detailed information for each product has been difficult to track down.

Of course, we have a Pennzoil, Mobile, and Quaker State rep that come in and load us with posters, pamphlets, and shelf talkers, but even their working knowledge seems limited.

Originally Posted By: aa1986

Your customers may not be impressed by an oil that meets a certain spec, but if you really want to make your life simple and do the right thing for your customer, all you need to do is find what each vehicle officially requires, and then use an oil that meets that spec.


This has proven to be a bit of a challenge. Most vehicles we work on do not have the OEM recommended oil on an underhood sticker or on a door jamb label. Many vehicles are also missing their owner's manuals to look it up. From my limited research, I was unable to find a catalog that documents the type of oil each vehicle requires. Google, and our own database of previous oil changes on similar vehicles has been a valuable resource. Even then, we'll get thrown a curve ball.

Last week, we had to decline an oil change on a VW Jetta with the 2.0 diesel. While looking up the type of oil it requires, we found that we did not carry an oil that meets VW's strict specification. Even though a Google search revealed that many people were using Mobile 1 Turbo Diesel, we just didn't feel comfortable with that selection without more information.

Originally Posted By: eljefino
I worked at a tire shop one winter and we had a 300 gallon tank of 5w30 and used "pronto" chinese filters. I re-interviewed recently and was pleased they moved to 55 gal barrels of Peak semi-syn 5w30, 5w20, and maybe one other grade. They use cheapo O'reillys filters now. I felt like a tool putting the 5w30 in camrys that called for 5/20. Interestingly, I saw tons of corollas and camrys but never a prius-- they draw a different crowd, maybe one more dealer-loyal.

My question for you is, do you have some sort of wall poster/ cheat sheet for the techs on OLM reset procedures? Some (hondas) were a hassle, and we were expected to be born knowing them all.


Yes we do have an OLM reset chart, ours is printed and hung in the shop. I can't recall Hondas being a hassle, GM vehicles take an almost magic touch to reset on the first shot. Ford/Lincoln vehicles that have OLM, but without the nicer graphical instrument cluster (digital text green screen) can be quite difficult too.

We do Prius changes every day. I kinda question the longevity of a plastic cap filter system, but Toyota has a reputation for reliability. I'm sure it's good if they trust it.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Fordtrucktexan
Hello everyone

Not long ago I was assigned an area that involves a lube shop. Most customers spring for the bottom line oil/filter change, but a few ask questions and obviously want what's best for their vehicle, without breaking the bank. Google has been my friend, and has led me to the site many times (a great resource btw).

Now I realize oil is pretty specific, what is the 'cat's meow' for one vehicle, isn't necessarily the best for another. However, if I were to post a list of common questions, and common vehicles we see, would ya'll be able to assist in providing information?

Oh, and keep in mind most of my customers aren't impressed by an oil that meets a certain spec, made from a particular base stock, or has "titanium" in it. They basically need to know why it's better, what it does for their vehicle, and is it worth the cost.

Thank you in advance...


Do you push customers to 3000 mile oil changes? Given your a lube place you probably not going to suggest extended oil changes. Which is where the expensive synthetics are most useful.

As for certain engines prefer certain oils, thats more of some people's opinions rather than fact. Follow whats in the owners manual and you should be good. Most cars are not going to have an oil related issue assuming the OCI is not extended to something crazy and oil looking like driveway sealer comes out.

What do you do about the oil drain plug washer? Reuse always? Replace? Blast the plug tight with a 3/4" impact?

 

[Chris142]

I/we use what the manual says the car needs. Most of the cars we work on are 2000 or older american cars such as Buicks with the 3.8.

I carry Super-s for these. I shop this oil by price. Cars that call for vw spec 50.whatever get what brand I can find that meets that spec.usually lubramoly and almost exclusively napa pro line filters.

 

[kozanoglu]

Originally Posted By: Fordtrucktexan
Can't comment on loss leader.

Bulk - we provide Penn 5w20/30, Penn HM, QS 5w20/30 and 10w30 (iirc), and oddly, Castrol Edge w/Syntec 10w-40 (not popular). Not sure what a Group 7 is, but we use a bulk Fram filter unless customer requests another, or it's a unique application. Our cheapest change is around $30.


Pit crew is the leader.