wemay
Site Donor 2023
I hear The Sopranos theme music in the background.
New Jersey tells Tesla: remove super chargers from NJ Turnpike
- Thread starter alarmguy
- Start date
I can agree with most of what you've said. But history has shown us that small charges tend to grow into big charges as time goes on. Like you said , cable TV used to be cheap by us when it first came around. Now it's borderline ridiculous. And now that were all used to having it, doing without isn't much of an option. So we all just pay the increases . The fees for road use taxes aren't about to go down. Seems the states search out and find people to conjure up creative ways to sell price increases . I'd be willing to bet that the $250 fee now in place in New Jersey for registering you EV, will magically become a $1200 fee in maybe 10 years. Due to lack of space, and not much changing in the real world of road repair, you won't be able to see any difference in road conditions. But that fee will still be in place, and they;ll be looking for more ways to increase it. And until the rest of the world really gets on board with pollution issues, you will still be able to buy 2 stroke engines and black smoke producing diesels for years to come..,,,
That last line always gets me...they are forcing regulations on passenger vehicles, but big rigs, 2500 class and above pickups, etc are all exempt.
Where do they think the bulk of the emissions are coming from at this point? I get that passenger size cars and trucks are higher in number on the roads but at this point they are so efficient its like trying to squeeze blood from a stone.
The 2 stroke bans are laughable...the fact that states or municipalities have to come at it from the "noise" angle to try and make them palatable shows its complete BS.
I don't have the numbers in front of me. Something like $120 per year but don't quote me on that. Also, CA is exploring a mileage calculation, similar to @OVERKILL suggested.
The main problem is the short sightedness of the people that can't see where the build of pollution comes from. Does anyone think airplanes have any form of pollution controls on them?, and how many of them are in the sky at any given time?. Personal boats get on the average 2 miles to a gallon. A diesel boat might get 3 mpg. Ocean going ships cannot carry enough fuel to cross the Ocean, so the carry concentrated fuel called Bunker, and basically refine it onboard to Diesel, to keep the ships running. How many of those are running on the seas at any given time?. Construction vehicles for mining and quarry work are drinking fuel like water. Those vehicle get a pass on pollution laws. When ever it's mentioned, the mfgrs say they working on it and make some changes. But mostly to make the machines run better, but not to lower emissions. But my 32 cc weed wacker is a pollution generator. Some foreign countries don't worry about any machines that will be used in their country. And only worry about any machines that will be imported to the US, or other pollution controlled countries. Whats funny is how the use fossil fuel burning trucks, to deliver clean, efficient, non polluting vehicles.,,,
I guess if you wanted to spin it, some people consider the extra cost of gasoline worth the convenience.
Then the other way to spin it is some people consider the convenience of electric worth the extra cost of an electric vehicle.
I’m actually surprised how much cost is brought up in this thread, especially knowing many in here income levels are well above the median income.
For me personally if cost wasn’t a factor. I would find both vehicles interesting internal combustion versus electric motor.
Same as years back a four-cylinder six cylinder or eight cylinder engine, the thrill of something new and different such as an electric motor if all things are equal in vehicle size, convenience to the individual and cost I would find it a thrilling purchase.
Then the other way to spin it is some people consider the convenience of electric worth the extra cost of an electric vehicle.
I’m actually surprised how much cost is brought up in this thread, especially knowing many in here income levels are well above the median income.
For me personally if cost wasn’t a factor. I would find both vehicles interesting internal combustion versus electric motor.
Same as years back a four-cylinder six cylinder or eight cylinder engine, the thrill of something new and different such as an electric motor if all things are equal in vehicle size, convenience to the individual and cost I would find it a thrilling purchase.
One diesel engine manufacturer was able to make an opposed piston (i.e. the piston crowns go towards each other) 6 cylinder twin turbo diesel that is 40% more efficient than current diesel engines and would meet all emissions requirements up to at least 2035. Yet California wants to hamper their production as ev semis are supposedly the future. From what I remember an article said Semi trucks are currently 14-20% of traffic yet produce 59% of the particulate pollution and 43% of NOx emissions. One of the biggest issues is the cost of certification has become crippling to small companies making it almost impossible to develop new technologies.
Per ORNL.
https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10661
Its useful to remember light duty includes most delivery vehicles - like your local UPS / Amazon etc driver. Also water would be inland - not oceangoing obviously.
https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10661
Its useful to remember light duty includes most delivery vehicles - like your local UPS / Amazon etc driver. Also water would be inland - not oceangoing obviously.
Ive driven a few Tesla Model S. They are fast as all get out, definitely interesting for sure.
While cost is a thing, use case is a bigger thing in my mind.
My son drives all over the place, 15K-20K miles per year. Recharging along the way would be a PITA.
Wife's car gets about 9K miles put on it per year, EV might make OK sense because she could do her daily thing with some charge left over, but her car has plenty of life left in it.
I barely drive anywhere, EV would make total sense but there is no reason for me to sell my current vehicle and buy an EV if Im only driving 5K miles per year. Plus I drive a pickup truck and occasionally do pickup truck things, no way Im spending for a Rivian or F150 electric to replace my paid-off RAM (I guess cost came into play, sort of)
When the time comes to replace these vehicles, I will weigh the options. As more companies go to hybrid or EV only, we may have no choice, but Im hopeful when the time does come, a lot of these companies have at least left some ICE options open because they will still sell well for the foreseeable future (in my opinion).
We pay road taxes…. It’s charged up front with tags on every renewal.
It’s still way cheaper to drive an EV.
I do drive about 20k miles per year. My public charging use is still pretty minimal, but fills the gaps when needed. So far this vehicle has been the best fit for my needs yet. I cut out two fuel stops a week when on my normal schedule and I’ve had to public charge 5x this year.
There is more than one problem in the world, and more than one solution.
CO2 is a global problem and NOx and particle pollution is a local problem.
Innovations like catalytic converters did wonders for NOx and smog. Probably saved millions of lives. But it didn't do anything for CO2 or particle emissions; potentially made it worse by encouraging further entrenchment of ICE vehicles.
Oceangoing ships and airplanes generally pump out their emissions CO2 far from people, and they are hard to clean up. That fact doesn't imply that efforts to clean up emissions close to people, with a greater possibility of cleanup, are invalid.
Like it or not, now that automobiles have very clean exhausts, small engines really are a major cause of smog-causing pollution. There are hundreds of millions of houses in the country, and nearly every one of them has a lawnmower. The lawnmower in the shed, with no emission controls at all, no catalytic converter, air cooled, primitive carburetor, is potentially contributing more to pollution than the car in the same house's driveway...the car with engine temperature control, engine management, fuel injection, EGR, and catalytic converters. And lawn equipment is very easy to electrify; it's basically happening voluntarily already.
CO2 is a global problem and NOx and particle pollution is a local problem.
Innovations like catalytic converters did wonders for NOx and smog. Probably saved millions of lives. But it didn't do anything for CO2 or particle emissions; potentially made it worse by encouraging further entrenchment of ICE vehicles.
Oceangoing ships and airplanes generally pump out their emissions CO2 far from people, and they are hard to clean up. That fact doesn't imply that efforts to clean up emissions close to people, with a greater possibility of cleanup, are invalid.
Like it or not, now that automobiles have very clean exhausts, small engines really are a major cause of smog-causing pollution. There are hundreds of millions of houses in the country, and nearly every one of them has a lawnmower. The lawnmower in the shed, with no emission controls at all, no catalytic converter, air cooled, primitive carburetor, is potentially contributing more to pollution than the car in the same house's driveway...the car with engine temperature control, engine management, fuel injection, EGR, and catalytic converters. And lawn equipment is very easy to electrify; it's basically happening voluntarily already.
There is no fair in finance. There are many different way to split a pie but no way would it makes everyone happy. In the end it is all about negotiation and bargaining power.
JHZR2
Staff member
True, but it also burns far less, and NOx or anything else is contingent upon load and fuel burned.
At .42 kWh inc ever increasing taxes and fees and over 70K for solar panels that do not work optimally in this area I cant see any reason to buy an ev of any sort especially when I own my present vehicles outright and manage to put 10K a year on between them.
Seems like another sensationalized story from the headline to the impact.
Seems pretty straightforward. The contract was up, there was a bid for the retail outlets and charging, Applegreen won.
It appears Applegreen uses 175 KW tritium chargers with CCS and chademo even though NACS is the winning standard.
Applegreen could choose any 3rd party charger or even make a deal to install a tesla charger bank after the fact.
Who knows what will actually go in or be plumbed for or be maintained and what the quality of the outlets will be like?
I for one hope they are cool.
With all 3rd party chargers Applegreen gets to keep all the charging money, vs. share it with Tesla.
Of course there is a downside to both Applgreen and the customer with 3rd party charging.
Applegreens locations lose real time availability, capability, and operational feedback.
Applegrens centers no longer appears on the (Telsa) cars automatic routing and therefore gets traffic routed away from it.
Any associated automatic preconditioning now needs manual intervention.
Of course these chargers will end up on 3rd party apps like a better route planner and plugshare.
Seems pretty straightforward. The contract was up, there was a bid for the retail outlets and charging, Applegreen won.
It appears Applegreen uses 175 KW tritium chargers with CCS and chademo even though NACS is the winning standard.
Applegreen could choose any 3rd party charger or even make a deal to install a tesla charger bank after the fact.
Who knows what will actually go in or be plumbed for or be maintained and what the quality of the outlets will be like?
I for one hope they are cool.
With all 3rd party chargers Applegreen gets to keep all the charging money, vs. share it with Tesla.
Of course there is a downside to both Applgreen and the customer with 3rd party charging.
Applegreens locations lose real time availability, capability, and operational feedback.
Applegrens centers no longer appears on the (Telsa) cars automatic routing and therefore gets traffic routed away from it.
Any associated automatic preconditioning now needs manual intervention.
Of course these chargers will end up on 3rd party apps like a better route planner and plugshare.
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To add some actual data to this - Applegreen has some NJ turnpike locations with the new 400kW SK Signet units. 1,000 volt, dual handle dispensers, 8 stalls, 500 amp with both CCS1 and NACS plugs.
AppleGreen’s Whitman Travel Plaza is an example in Cherry Hill. These are currently 35¢/kWh as I type. No membership required for that price.
One of the nearest Tesla Superchargers (also in Cherry Hill) is 57¢/kWh as I type with a potential 50¢/min congestion fee. One stall is broken currently and it’ll only output 250kW up at a max of around 500v.
Summary:
Right now, between these two Cherry Hill stations:
AppleGreen: 35¢/kWh
Tesla: 57¢/kWh (plus possible congestion fee)
And yes, you can drop this by buying a $50k+ Tesla or purchasing a monthly charging membership.
AppleGreen: Open to all EVs
Tesla: Not open to all EV’s (only some non-Teslas)
AppleGreen: No adapters required
Tesla: Must bring your own adapter for CCS vehicles
Applegreen: A Silverado EV (just one example) will hit around 380kW
Tesla: About 190kW max
AppleGreen: Can tap your CC/phone. No account required - but you do need a FREE account for 35¢/kWh.
Tesla: Must create an account with Tesla. Cannot pay with CC.
AppleGreen: All 8 dispensers are operational
Tesla: 7 operational dispensers, 1 broken.
AppleGreen: LONG charging cables at accommodate all EVs. 5.5 meters.
Tesla: Ridiculously Short cables. Most non-Tesla users will block a second stall to even have access. Only 2 meters.
AppleGreen’s Whitman Travel Plaza is an example in Cherry Hill. These are currently 35¢/kWh as I type. No membership required for that price.
One of the nearest Tesla Superchargers (also in Cherry Hill) is 57¢/kWh as I type with a potential 50¢/min congestion fee. One stall is broken currently and it’ll only output 250kW up at a max of around 500v.
Summary:
Right now, between these two Cherry Hill stations:
AppleGreen: 35¢/kWh
Tesla: 57¢/kWh (plus possible congestion fee)
And yes, you can drop this by buying a $50k+ Tesla or purchasing a monthly charging membership.
AppleGreen: Open to all EVs
Tesla: Not open to all EV’s (only some non-Teslas)
AppleGreen: No adapters required
Tesla: Must bring your own adapter for CCS vehicles
Applegreen: A Silverado EV (just one example) will hit around 380kW
Tesla: About 190kW max
AppleGreen: Can tap your CC/phone. No account required - but you do need a FREE account for 35¢/kWh.
Tesla: Must create an account with Tesla. Cannot pay with CC.
AppleGreen: All 8 dispensers are operational
Tesla: 7 operational dispensers, 1 broken.
AppleGreen: LONG charging cables at accommodate all EVs. 5.5 meters.
Tesla: Ridiculously Short cables. Most non-Tesla users will block a second stall to even have access. Only 2 meters.
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These dual spigot cabinets split power when two vehicle are hosed up correct?
Yes. It’ll charge two cars at the same time - shared, reduced power. Not exactly sure their method - seems different brands have different strategies.
They’re these ones.
https://sksignet.us/distributed/400kw-dp--600kw-pc
I believe the Alpitronic HYC400s which are being installed everywhere can send 600A to two cars at the same time, which is awesome. They must turn down the voltage but keep up the amps when shared. Others might keep the voltage but turn down the amps when shared. Not totally sure
Don't you have to have "someone " other then the owner of the car plug in the charger plug to the EV and then pull it out in NJ? You know, union protection corruption? Does it even go as far as them handling restroom duties with out union help? A slippery slope....Wait - NJ is funneling a huge amount of business to one company - and you are sure it’s NOT corruption?
I work in NJ - I have a very different take on that move.
The real question is this - will those new chargers be full service? Just like conventional fuel?
Where we have to sit there and wait for the attendant to take our credit card and plug in the car?
