New CVT oil ??

[Pablo]

if my 97000mile cvt fails(many had warranties extended to 100k miles) and the dealer says its not covered because of the fluid.. .them amsoil says the fluid didnt cause the failure .. what am I left with? Lawyers? Also how can 1 amsoil product replace 3 different subaru cvt fluids with different properties and viscosities?

I'll use the oem fluid. at least in warranty to avoid being "the man in the middle".

If the fluid caused the failure, the dealer/manufacturer must provide absolute proof the CVT fluid was the cause of the failure, and Amsoil will make contact if necessary. It's never happened though.

There is enough overlap that a good synthetic fluid with the correct additive package will cover all the listed (Amsoil) types.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

The implications that Amsoil does no testing or somehow Amsoil CVT fluid on the market for years now damages CVTs truly needs some proof from the folks making the claims at this point.

Never had any problems with Amsoil CVT.

Still don’t see any transmission parts on my driveway ( slight hill ) that fell off yet.

 

[IndyIan]

The implications that Amsoil does no testing or somehow Amsoil CVT fluid on the market for years now damages CVTs truly needs some proof from the folks making the claims at this point.

I'm not saying Amsoil causes damage. I have no data, you have no data, we have no ability to collect any data.
Amsoil bothers to say on their website they put their fluid in 4 Taxis in las vegas? Um, that's great, but still nothing approaching a proper analysis of how their fluid works for 25 cvt specs they claim it meets. It makes me far less confident TBH, just advertising chaff.

Subaru went to the trouble of making their own CVT's. So they should have many many times the data on their specific unique transmissions than Amsoil has? And Subaru has the most interest in getting it right, and even they even offer the longest transmission warranties in the business.
So in the absence of any other data, I'm going with the guys getting paid to minimize warranty claims for Subaru, and minimize production costs. If they thought one fluid was good enough for all their transmissions, wouldn't they just say that? Save some headaches?

A CVT isn't complex but the pulley/chain interface is the one thing that's pretty sensitive to the fluid and any slippage or odd wear isn't really fixable? Maybe subaru fine tunes the metallurgy in each trans type? I have no idea, no data, and I doubt amsoil does either, but for near equal dollars, I'm just getting the subaru stuff, and would recommend others do the same, based on the logic I outlined, but if you have a better argument, I'm all ears.

I'm not sure we have the equivalent of the Magnuson-Moss act here either, which makes me lean towards the OEM fluid.
For engine oil, I'm with you, use whatever meets the specs, but engine oils don't have carefully selected friction modifiers.

 

[martinq]

The bottom line here is that if you WANT to buy and use Subaru's brand of CVT fluid, go right ahead, I'm sure it's fine. In my personal and professional experience, over decades, the aftermarket offers better fluids at a better price.

Personally, I hate getting "ripped off", or being swindled, of having something "explained" to me by people who do not know or don't understand. I wish life were easier but there's always someone trying to take advantage. Such is life.

 

[Highboy]

I would use Amsoil or Red Line over dealer fluids unless the dealer fluid is a much better value. CVT fluid is not that special but the transmission must be kept clean.

Do you know if the transmission has a removable pan, magnets, filter? Keeping the pan and magnets clean is much more important than which fluid you use. Clean and cool son.

The only drawback is Subaru high torque fluid only comes in 5 gallon pails, not quarts last I heard.

 

[Rand]

How many times has magnuson moss been argued successfully to a dealer after a warranty claim is denied?..

The bottom line here is that if you WANT to buy and use Subaru's brand of CVT fluid, go right ahead, I'm sure it's fine. In my personal and professional experience, over decades, the aftermarket offers better fluids at a better price.

Personally, I hate getting "ripped off", or being swindled, of having something "explained" to me by people who do not know or don't understand. I wish life were easier but there's always someone trying to take advantage. Such is life

I'd a agree on a standard such as Dextron VI or ATF+4
but not on cvt fluid.

 

[Pelican]

- If Amsoil's fluid is XYZ certified - Subaru can't deny your claim based on that.

The Only Approval/Certification can come from Subaru itself or the Tranny manufacturer and this ought to appear on the bottle
without the OEM Approval number anything else is just an unproven claim. e.g. MB aftermarket oils/fluids IF MB approved have an approval number on the manufacturer bottle.

 

[martinq]

The Only Approval/Certification can come from Subaru itself or the Tranny manufacturer and this ought to appear on the bottle
without the OEM Approval number anything else is just an unproven claim. e.g. MB aftermarket oils/fluids IF MB approved have an approval number on the manufacturer bottle.

There are many ways you can talk yourself into justifying your position but the fact is that CVT transmissions at not very complicated, mechanically. The fluids that are required to maintain these gearboxes have been very well understood for over a decade but proper maintenance is up to you and your technician.

The code in the CVT controller can easily destroy the transmission much faster than you can by lack of maintenance or diligence. The brand and type of CVT fluid is very unimportant compared to temperature, cleanliness and fill level. There are no impressive secrets in your Subaru CVT that cannot be easily serviced by commodity fluids from Castrol, Mobil, Valvoline, Shell or high performance options like Amsol, Red Line, Motul, etc.

 

[Nessism1]

There are many ways you can talk yourself into justifying your position but the fact is that CVT transmissions at not very complicated, mechanically. The fluids that are required to maintain these gearboxes have been very well understood for over a decade but proper maintenance is up to you and your technician.

The code in the CVT controller can easily destroy the transmission much faster than you can by lack of maintenance or diligence. The brand and type of CVT fluid is very unimportant compared to temperature, cleanliness and fill level. There are no impressive secrets in your Subaru CVT that cannot be easily serviced by commodity fluids from Castrol, Mobil, Valvoline, Shell or high performance options like Amsol, Red Line, Motul, etc.

How do you know the CVT fluid isn't important? Are you a transmission engineer? Do you work for a major OEM? What is the basis for your continual dismissing of OEM fluid requirements, other than opinion?

And I totally disagree that "commodity fluids" match the OEM fluids that transmission engineers designed around.

 

[kschachn]

How do you know the CVT fluid isn't important? Are you a transmission engineer? Do you work for a major OEM? What is the basis for your continual dismissing of OEM fluid requirements, other than opinion?

And I totally disagree that "commodity fluids" match the OEM fluids that transmission engineers designed around.

Or your continual assertions that it’s a dire action to not use the OEM branded fluid even though the blenders of those fluids say otherwise.

You are free to disagree but others may not agree with that disagreement.

 

[kschachn]

The Only Approval/Certification can come from Subaru itself or the Tranny manufacturer and this ought to appear on the bottle
without the OEM Approval number anything else is just an unproven claim. e.g. MB aftermarket oils/fluids IF MB approved have an approval number on the manufacturer bottle.

Actually in this specific case, not even that. For Asian manufacturers the only licensed fluids are OEM branded. For those European approvals then it’s not necessary to be from the transmission manufacturer.

 

[Pablo]

I have asked Amsoil TS specifically about testing in Subaru and the various specifications.

 

[Nessism1]

I have asked Amsoil TS specifically about testing in Subaru and the various specifications.

No doubt, the fluid will meet the specs they have been provided by the OEM. But again, specs don't define every little nuance that the fluid possesses. And inside a transmission, small nuance can be important to things like shift performance.

Savage Geese recently reviewed the Audi A3, and one strong comment they made was praising the transmission. Said transmission is largely same as used by various VW products, yet they said the shift tuning was much better. There is a lot going on inside a modern tranny, and small differences in fluid can, possibly, affect function. To me, using aftermarket fluid is a gamble. I just don't see the point, unless the OE fluid is just stupid expensive, or your vehicle is seriously challenged otherwise, and you must save money.

 

[goblin]

...There is a lot going on inside a modern tranny, and small differences in fluid can, possibly, affect function...

And that is something that aftermarket fluid manufacturers won't know and be completely oblivious to ? Who brews the fluid for the car manufacturer?

Car manufacturers' track record about CVT transmissions is not exactly spotless, reliability-wise.

Nothing against sticking to manufacturer's fluid, I'd do that for a ZF automatic for example.

 

[dfarr67]

I'm stuck on this. Why would this happen? Need some science in aisle 9!

Most likely answer to me- incorrect fluid. I've personally avoided CVTs, the last new vehicle I purchased as a 2015 Accord with a MT, the Nissans were having problems in those years, my knowledge is very limited, so I would go proper oem fluid in this case.

 

[Pablo]

Most likely answer to me- incorrect fluid. I've personally avoided CVTs, the last new vehicle I purchased as a 2015 Accord with a MT, the Nissans were having problems in those years, my knowledge is very limited, so I would go proper oem fluid in this case.

Could only be the case if whatever fluid he used caused some permanent wear. That would be some pretty crazy wear. But add in the word shift with a VCT, very odd indeed.

I was wary as well but three personal Hondas (daughters and wife) and many many customers - cars that are just beat on and over 200K miles with CVT's and Amsoil CVT fluid, tell me for some CVTs = good to go.

 

[Pablo]

Amsoil TS wrote:

"We have tested for all the specifications on the data sheet. We meet, and exceed, the specifications. We do field testing on every product, but expecting every condition (weather, elevation, driving style, other driveline wear, modifications, etc) is just not possible. We focus on meeting and or exceeding the specifications themselves. If it does not meet or exceed a specification, we will not list that specification for the product."

 

[goblin]

So the question is - does Subaru make their own specifications, and if so - do they publish them. Which I would expect them to do.

And also - would a manufacturer omit some parameter from the specifications they publish, to throw a stick in the wheels of fluid manufacturers. Which sounds outlandish to me.

 

[Pablo]

So the question is - does Subaru make their own specifications, and if so - do they publish them. Which I would expect them to do.

And also - would a manufacturer omit some parameter from the specifications they publish, to throw a stick in the wheels of fluid manufacturers. Which sounds outlandish to me.

I also think there is quite a bit of reverse engineering. GC, HPLC, etc.

 

[Nessism1]

Motor oils are made to common specifications, but many of the resulting products have significant physical differences. Kirkland oil vs Amsoil? These differences don't typically result in significant functional differences inside an engine, but transmissions are different. The friction characteristics of the fluid matter. Subaru clearly know this, which is why they sell so many different transmission fluids. And if Amsoil CVT fluid replaces several different Subaru fluids, that tell us that the differences are not defined in the published specs.