New Car Alloy Wheel "Condition"

[GaryM]

Just wanting people's thoughts...
I read that nice alloy wheels should only be balanced with special "stick on" weights and no clip-ons should be used (even on the back side of the wheel). naturally, the stick-ons don't (shouldn't) damage the painted surface of the wheel.
Also, I understand that a tire should be "mountable" on a nice painted alloy wheel without damage, ie. the paint isn't damaged. (I understand that extremely low-profile tires and run-flats are extremely difficult to mount without damaging the wheel's finish) I'm asking these questions cause I just took delivery of a new, 2011 Scion tC (18" painted alloy wheels) and they each have clip-on weights and there is also "slight" paint damage on the inside of the wheels from where the tires were mounted...Thoughts?
Thanks,

 

[meangreen01]

My Mazda 6 doesn't have a lip that would even take a clip on weight. IMO, sticky is the way to go.

As far as damage from mont and balance, I think a reputable tire shop can do it on larger diameter rims without damage. That's my experience, anyway.

 

[oilboy123]

By only using stick on weights you're not going to get as good of a balance job.

 

[Malo83]

Originally Posted By: oilboy123
By only using stick on weights you're not going to get as good of a balance job.

Use stick-ons all my custom wheels with no problems

 

[CapriRacer]

Some wheels will accomodate clip on weights - some won't.

Clip on weights do damage the clearcoat on alloy wheels, however, once they are on, the damage is done. So you can not undo what the factory already did - leave it.

Tape on weights don't damage the surface, but they tend to fall off more than clip on weights. But it is totally untrue that you don't get as good of balance with tape on weights. Weight is weight.

Alloy wheels can be damaged by mounting, but the newer rim clamp machines to a better job than the older centerpost machines. Pretty much everyone who is serious about their business is using a rim clamp machine.

- BUT -

The machine and the balance are only as good as the operator. If he knows what he is doing, he'll do a good job. If not, then you could wind up with damaged wheels and out of balance and wheel assemblies!

 

[The_Jeff]

Originally Posted By: oilboy123
By only using stick on weights you're not going to get as good of a balance job.


If you get a static balance on a random spot inside the room, because the ugly weights are hidden.

 

[GaryM]

Thanks to all for the replies...a little more info. we still have a 2009 Toyota Camry TSS which came with "special" Enkei 18" wheels (from Gulf States Toyota...the distributor for Louisiana, Texas, etc.) and it only had stick-on weights and there was absolutely no damage to the paint from the tire mounting process. We just replaced it's original Bridgestone tires with Michelin Pilot Sport A/S and the demounting/remounting was again done with no damage. The Scion xB we just got rid of had "TRD" wheels (Toyota Racing Devolopment) which specifically call for only stick-on weights (Toyota has detailed installation instructions for many of it's accessories...PDF format) The instructions even explain how extreme caution must be used to not damage the paint surface (nylon this/that). Back to the 2011 Scion tC which I took delivery of on February 15...I didn't mention that the original 4 wheels had a white "residue" on the front of the wheel surfaces...it appeared to have "drained" from the lugnut holes and would simply wash off...it wouldn't come off so the dealer swapped those 4 wheels with 4 wheels off another tC on the lot. These didn't have the white residue but the "damage" from the tire mounting was slightly worse than the original 4 and...when I took one off last night to clean the inside and put some wax on it, I found a couple of spots where there was no paint at all...super shiny silver with very fine grooves. hard to tell if it flaked off or if the paint process just missed it...slightly smaller than a dime. so there does seem to be a Quality Control Issue with these wheels. The dealer is addressing it now...will probably order 4 replacements (verify they are "good" first), then install tires. I've got several really "bad" stories to tell about wheels/tires in just the last couple of years...maybe that's why I'm being a litte picky.
GaryM

 

[jjjxlr8]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
But it is totally untrue that you don't get as good of balance with tape on weights. Weight is weight.

Not entirely true. The position of the weight is also important. Technically, you can get a better balance with clip on weights as you are placing the weight at a distance further away from the center plane of the tire/wheel assembly and at a position further away from the center of rotation. This means that you can use less weight to provide the same balance force.

That said, the difference is negligible and stick-on weights are the way to go for nice wheels. Just make sure that the operator is using the correct settings on the balancer and make sure that they set the weight positions as far to the edge of the inside of the wheel as possible. And most importantly, make sure they clean the wheel where the weights will be placed(without stripping the paint) so that the weights don't come off.

 

[sciphi]

When we got winter alloys for the Fit, the installer who installed our already-purchased set of snow tires used sticky weights instead of clip-on weights. The car drives fine.

The OEM wheels came with sticky weights too. They were balanced just fine.

 

[oilboy123]

Originally Posted By: jjjxlr8
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
...
But it is totally untrue that you don't get as good of balance with tape on weights. Weight is weight.

...


Not entirely true. The position of the weight is also important. Technically, you can get a better balance with clip on weights as you are placing the weight at a distance further away from the center plane of the tire/wheel assembly and at a position further away from the center of rotation. This means that you can use less weight to provide the same balance force.

That said, the difference is negligible and stick-on weights are the way to go for nice wheels. Just make sure that the operator is using the correct settings on the balancer and make sure that they set the weight positions as far to the edge of the inside of the wheel as possible. And most importantly, make sure they clean the wheel where the weights will be placed(without stripping the paint) so that the weights don't come off.


+1 Could not have said it better. I was comparing stick on weights that were stuck towards the center plane of the wheel as opposed to on both outside edges. My Bad

 

[rpn453]

I wouldn't worry about the cosmetic issues on the inside of the wheel. My wheels are balanced with clip-ons for the inside and stick-ons for the outside.

 

[GaryM]

Yeah...I'm not so concerned about the clip-on weights now that I've read they are "coated" (or supposed to be) to specifically prevent damaging the paint and/or Powder coating. The complete lack of paint and/or powder coating in specific spots does bother me...The reason the alloy wheel is coated is to prevent corrosion (in admittedly the most highly corrosive environment you could create...corrosive brake pad dust, extreme heat, moisture, etc.) and it doesn't take much corrosion at all to compromise the wheel. I'm hoping this is just an anomoly and the 4 wheels they get in will not have this problem.
GaryM

 

[rpn453]

I wouldn't worry about the structure underneath. Exposed aluminum surfaces corrode instantly, but unlike rust it's a very thin and durable film. It's not uncommon to strip the paint or clearcoat from an aluminum wheel, polish it, and run it bare. The winter wheels on my mother's '99 Sunfire are like that. They've seen over a decade of winter use and they're still fine. I also have plenty of bare aluminum components on my bicycles that are exposed to very corrosive winter condition and they do fine. It's the steel drivetrain that corrodes if I don't wipe it and oil it after every wet early spring ride.

 

[CapriRacer]

There are a number of problems with clip on weights:

1) The wheel has to be able to accomodate them. Some wheels do not have a surface to clip onto.

2) The weight has to conform to the contour of the wheel. As a result, there are at least 4 kinds of weights (contours) and the shop you are using has to have the right kind. It is not uncommon for shops to order one or two popular varieties and put up with returns for thrown weights.

3) The weights have to be properly coated if applied to alloy wheels. This seems an area little examined. I've seen some coated wheel weights scratch the clearcloat. My favorite weights work like springs rather than clips.

4) And lastly, the shop your are using has to stock COATED weights. I've seen plenty of shops that use only one kind of uncoated weight. There's a really funny story that I'll tell at a later date.

Oh heck! I'll tell it now.

The company I work for puts on yearly press and dealer launch parties to introduce new products. The parties involve lots of cars driven hard over the course of several days. Typically we rent these cars from a rental agency (like Hertz), but we take the stock tires and wheels off and replace them with our stuff (on aftermarket wheels). We have several sets of wheels for each car so at the end of the day, we can replace all the tires quickly to be ready for the next day, and then mount up new tires on wheels for the next exchange.

One year, they had trouble getting support from the local tire dealers for the mount and balance, not to mention that starting about 6:00 pm, they needed to exchange tires on and off the cars. I suspect most of the problem was that we were in the middle of nowhere and there weren't a lot of nearby choices. We settled on one shop that agreed to work overtime to get all this stuff done. Unfortunately, after 3 days, the shop's employees got tired of it and refused to do the overtime.

So we came rolling in with a dozen cars all in a row driven by a dozen people already tired after being up since 6:00 am and ready for a beer or 4, and we're told the cars won't get done. Since most every in our group has mounted tires at one time or another, we knew what to do - and we just did it!.

The shop empoyees were [censored]! We worked faster and more efficiently, and didn't break anything. We did it in half the time - particularly after we sent someone down the street for some Corona!

The only down side was that they one had one style of uncoated wheels weight. Luckily, our tool chest (that comes along on these trips) has a couple of boxes of stick-on weights (We've encountered problems like this before!) Plus we really didn't care about the long term affects on the wheels. They only needed to last a few weeks!

 

[GaryM]

It's not so much that I'm worried about the structure of the wheels, it's the idea that I drop $22K on a new car and the wheels aren't even properly coated. If these were "cheap" wheels, maybe I wouldn't expect so much BUT, these are $540/wheel...!
Also, I used to be heavily into cycling (when I was younger) and the "bare" aluminum components you speak of...they are actually "Anodized" (a chemical process). Believe me, if you could get the anodizing off (would be extremely difficult), those aluminum components would corrode very fast.
I think the "villain" in my scenario is Gulf States Toyota (the Distributor)...I've heard many complaints about them (lack of quality control) but contractually, Toyota is having problems getting rid of them.
GaryM

 

[GaryM]

For those interested in a more "Scientific" explanation of Aluminum Alloy Corrosion (especially in a wheel)...
==========================================================
This type of corrosion is most commonly seen on aluminium and magnesium alloys. It first appears as small white or grey powdery deposits which when cleaned away reveal tiny pits in the surface.

Pitting corrosion begins by a breakdown of the passive metal surface which is followed by the formation of a corrosion cell. The anode is a minute area of active metal in the centre of the pit and the cathode is a larger area of passive metal. Pitting can be a serious form of corrosion because of its tendency to penetrate rapidly into the metal surface. This is because the anode is within the pit and surrounded by the passive cathode. This produces the tendency for the corrosion to penetrate rather than spread. The penetration is accentuated if it occurs on a horizontal surface because it is also affected by the force of gravity.
==========================================================

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: GaryM
Also, I used to be heavily into cycling (when I was younger) and the "bare" aluminum components you speak of...they are actually "Anodized" (a chemical process). Believe me, if you could get the anodizing off (would be extremely difficult), those aluminum components would corrode very fast.


Many are, but I have a few components where I've stripped the paint off myself and simply polished them. Without a smooth surface, the aluminum certainly is more susceptible to corrosion. It just hasn't been an issue on any aluminum automotive or bicycle parts in my experience.

 

[GaryM]

OK...I stand corrected...The villain is not the Distributor (Gulf States Toyota) but rather Toyota/Scion themselves. These wheels are installed at the factory (Japan) and the distributor only installed the window tinting, Stereo system, and floor mats. I've also not confirmed that these are Enkei wheels...possibly Toyota thought they would save some money by switching from Enkei to another wheel manufacturer ??
Dealer is in the process of trying to order 4 of these wheels...still showing as "unavailable".
GaryM

 

[Old Mustang Guy]

My 06 Mustang GT came with the standard 17" wheels with clip on weights. When Discount Tire rebalanced them I was always able to polish out the old mark with some car wax. I upgraded to 18" wheels that take stick on weights. They have been fine also with no balancing problems.

 

[GaryM]

I agree now that a clamp-on weight, when done right, isn't a real problem and might make small scratches that could be easily removed.
I also got confirmation from the Distributor that the wheels they put on my car are NOT Enkei...to me, this explains the quality control problems that I've seen. Someone trying to "save a few dollars" but in the end, will cost more once these wheels have to be replaced. I'd like to know what other wheel manufacturer Toyota uses besides Enkei.
GaryM