new battery can give 300 mi range in just 5 min

[JeffKeryk]

Very good point. I was thinking more of a "you can still charge your EV even if you can swap" scenario where you just plug it in like a normal EV, and only swap when you need to on the road with no time to charge. That way you don't need too many batteries, and most people don't need to over purchase for their range anxiety.

On the other hand everyone may want to get the large battery on Thanksgiving week and there will be none. There is no solution to seasonal demand surge other than someone keeping idle inventory (whether it is on the car as spare capacity or in the swap station waiting for people to swap).

Maybe an expensive equipment idling because of cheap batteries or charging time limitation can be addressed by swapping, like a semi that runs 247. But for a passenger EV which the battery is the most expensive part, maybe swapping won't do much more than having an extra EV around.

A key point is, where do you put the service stations? You could easily add more Superchargers instead and service more vehicles at the same time. And probably charge faster than a swap.

I see all cost and zero benefit in battery swap. The only scenario is where charging infrastructure is really bad.

 

[JeffKeryk]

There are some companies in China doing it. I saw Kyle Connor do a video on a car with the feature and filmed the process from inside the car. It's interesting and a pretty quick process, but this is definitely not a feature that's going to be necessary for the majority of drivers. They also offer different sizes of batteries for a different monthly subscriptions. Personally I'd rather just have the same battery that I know the condition from using it every day. I see this as being a major service each time it's swapped. It can't be good for the components to be constantly unplugged and plugged in along with the screws being constantly removed and reinstalled.

Terrible idea. You need to manufacture 10x batteries per EV. Logistics nightmare.
It might work is a small, contained area to simplify the planning.

Material Planning is, by far, the biggest nightmare in manufacturing. The only way to mitigate the problem (aka cost) is with a known demand. Forecasting is the critical element.

 

[Torrid]

Terrible idea. You need to manufacture 10x batteries per EV. Logistics nightmare.
It might work is a small, contained area to simplify the planning.

Material Planning is, by far, the biggest nightmare in manufacturing. The only way to mitigate the problem (aka cost) is with a known demand. Forecasting is the critical element.

I think that long term they'll likely quit doing it for that reason. Apparently there's a few cars there that have already been doing this for 2-3 years and they claim it's popular for those living it situations without home charging. I'm not sure how much truth there is in that because they didn't show any statistics of ownership in the video.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I think that long term they'll likely quit doing it for that reason. Apparently there's a few cars there that have already been doing this for 2-3 years and they claim it's popular for those living it situations without home charging. I'm not sure how much truth there is in that because they didn't show any statistics of ownership in the video.

Yes, I can see battery swapping in a very poor area, with ultra cheap cars.

 

[k1xv]

If you were going to charge 6 cars simultaneously, you would have to locate the charging station next to a 500 kv transmission line.

 

[JeffKeryk]

If you were going to charge 6 cars simultaneously, you would have to locate the charging station next to a 500 kv transmission line.

Early morning Petaluma, CA. That's our 1st Tesla, the white one on the end.

 

[PandaBear]

Yes, I can see battery swapping in a very poor area, with ultra cheap cars.

There are already golf cart like EV for those in China. They were called "old people's joy" and are very popular among retirees. No need for battery swap as they are light enough to be taken out and charged inside the house.

 

[PandaBear]

If you were going to charge 6 cars simultaneously, you would have to locate the charging station next to a 500 kv transmission line.

Not necessarily. If you look at anything public like sewage, water main, electric grid for home, copper phone line, cable modem, cell phone network, etc. None of them have the main being the sum of all the individual user's capacity. The more individual users to balance things out the more they will follow the law of large numbers and get close to an average.

 

[4WD]

I don’t own an EV - but in my triangle between the Houston, San Antonio, and Austin areas - chargers are popping in at a fast pace. Not many are the generic (promised) electron statues we heard about - I’d say 75/25 Tesla/MB - and as I said 5 years ago just drive past Buc-ee’s 100 fuel pumps and in there

 

[GrumpyCat]

The weirdest argument is "rebalancing battery weight". You don't think engineer knows how to mount something with center of gravity in mind?

"Balance" has more meaning than "center of gravity."

Throw an extra 700 pounds in your sedan and tell me how you like it.

Lithium ion battery of any kind should gradually reduce capacity over the years. You don't need to start out building 30% range battery, you can start out building 100% range, then as it age and when swap station or batteries owners would have originally sold the car at 70% range, rent it out as 70% range battery for many more years, then degrade it to 30% range for the local users looking for bargains, then maybe at 20% the battery is physically dead. Most people retire a battery when the range is too low, not when they are permanently damaged (this is like your phone battery). Having variable age (therefore range) available at different price means these can be used way longer in years.

Armchair Engineering at it's best!

 

[GrumpyCat]

Most megawatt chargers ...

I have never seen one. Have heard there are some in China where life is cheap.

... are in common places people visit: highway supercharger stations, Target, Costco, class A office buildings in downtown, etc. They already need huge grid connection for their function. The Target I go to has 15 Supercharger in a row already, they already need MW connection. People charge with a lot less time in a store than at their own home, so yes, only one at a time can use it is a good thing because many more people want to come for a very short time instead of all sitting there waiting for a long time.

Think of it like your internet: your home probably only need 100mbps, and a data center need 10000x that.

Right, 15 (really, not 16?) Supercharger bays can service 16 (or 15?) vehicles at once. Typically 16 Supercharging bays are provisioned with 3000kV-A (apparently you didn't know that).

You would have vehicles wait in line for 2-3 charging connections 5 minutes at a time rather than use their own Supercharger for 5-20 minutes.

And then regularly pound The Fragile Grid with a megawatt on/off every few minutes? All because this follows The Gas Station Model and you can't comprehend charging at a mere 10kW during the night when generating capacity is at surplus? When one isn't cooking or heating water for a shower.

 

[GrumpyCat]

Your retirement fund already own some auto loans, and indirectly own some EV loans, and therefore indirectly own some EV battery depreciation risk.

Actually, it does not.

And most certainly would liquidate any any investment bankrolling EV battery rentals.

 

[midobo]

1000A of current requires a lot of conductors. 1000V needs a lot of insulation.

I don't think you could trust the average Joe with that amount of current or voltage. Heck, I know electricians I wouldn't trust with that amount of power!

 

[GrumpyCat]

@PandaBear the battery swap plan is ridiculous. How many of these stations will be needed and where? How many batteries will they stock? You probably need 10x batteries to EVs. Idle inventory is evil and you are using far more energy to keep them charged vs 1 battery per car. Batteries are heavy and require specialized equipment to move and swap out.

It's just Those Darn Capitalists are not as smart as PandaBear.

CARB has tried to bankroll battery swap for at least 20 years. Lots of extra Clean Air Credits for designs which have battery swap provisions. Catch-22 is that eventually one has to put battery swap into production. Tesla did exactly that. The 2012 Model S was designed for battery swap. Production vehicles supported battery swap. Eventually Tesla had to put a battery swap station in the streets open to all customers. Collected clean air credits for it that year, then shut it down, removed the provisions for battery swap from new vehicles.

Customers didn't want it for the price that had to be charged. Someone else thought it was $80 to swap, and then one had to come back within a period to swap one's original battery back else pay hefty rental charges. Wasn't clear whether or not that was yet another $80.

Everywhere EV battery swap has been tried it has failed.

I'm just waiting on Dewalt, Milwaukee, Baur, B&W, Apple, etc, to go bankrupt because they don't have the wisdom to standardize on swappable batteries. I remember that engineering giant, Mercedes-Benz, standardized on AA alkaline batteries for their EVs. Right?

 

[GrumpyCat]

A key point is, where do you put the service stations? You could easily add more Superchargers instead and service more vehicles at the same time. And probably charge faster than a swap.

I see all cost and zero benefit in battery swap. The only scenario is where charging infrastructure is really bad.

Tesla had a robotic battery swap station that could swap a Model S battery in 90 seconds. YouTube videos.

All this is moot. Is all in support of maintaining The Gas Station Model. You people can't give up your gas stations. I'd rather spend 15 seconds connecting tonight at home and 15 seconds to disconnect in the morning. At 1/4 the kWh cost.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I would humbly ask we respect eachother's posts with the goal of learning from each other. The wealth of knowledge here never ceases to amaze me!
I don't know much about electricity, but I know enough about money (I can count) to know that the solar panels on my roof sucking in energy from that big nuclear reactor up in the California sky can power my house and car pretty cheaply, at least as compared to PG&E and $5 gas.

And my car is faster than yours.... High 10 second qtr... Maybe the fastest car on the forum? What ya got? Talk to me...

 

[4WD]

I would humbly ask we respect eachother's posts with the goal of learning from each other. The wealth of knowledge here never ceases to amaze me!
I don't know much about electricity, but I know enough about money (I can count) to know that the solar panels on my roof sucking in energy from that big nuclear reactor up in the California sky can power my house and car pretty cheaply, at least as compared to PG&E and $5 gas.

And my car is faster than yours.... High 10 second qtr... Maybe the fastest car on the forum? What ya got? Talk to me...
View attachment 269283

Jeff, think you left the humble part in 10 seconds

 

[JeffKeryk]

Jeff, think you left the humble part in 10 seconds

I never want to offend anyone.
And you can borrow the car anytime.

 

[4WD]

I never want to offend anyone.
And you can borrow the car anytime.

Probably get my own if I had a M-F job … but Airbus and Boeing is it for now

 

[dogememe]

I would humbly ask we respect eachother's posts with the goal of learning from each other. The wealth of knowledge here never ceases to amaze me!
I don't know much about electricity, but I know enough about money (I can count) to know that the solar panels on my roof sucking in energy from that big nuclear reactor up in the California sky can power my house and car pretty cheaply, at least as compared to PG&E and $5 gas.

And my car is faster than yours.... High 10 second qtr... Maybe the fastest car on the forum? What ya got? Talk to me...
View attachment 269283

Do I have the slowest EV on the forum or do we give that title to the Leaf owners on here? I guess I should say I have the slowest "modern" EV on here. Can we trade cars for a week?

Jokes aside, I think 5 minute charging is cool but it doesn't really solve any problems. Even with 150kw peak charging and what's probably worst in class efficiency, I've never really had any issues with the Prologue's charging. I'd take a battery that lasts 200K miles with minimal degradation and 30 minute charge times over a battery that is cooked by 100K miles with 5 minute charge times.