Need your professional opinion on tires

[Hohn]

Every September, we have this conversation on the neighborhood Facebook page: "I just moved to CO (my neighborhood is packed with active duty folks, so lots of transitioning in and out) and wondering do I need snow tires?"
First to jump: "If you don't drive a lot, you don't need it." Or: "just stay home when it snows," (because you know, life never happens).

Of course, winter comes, weather is unpredictable. We have a saying here: "if you don't like the weather, just wait 5 minutes, it will change." So, the weatherman says 2" of snow, we get 20". Or they say 20" and we don't get anything. So, there goes the assumption of how one can stay home, bcs. I lived through 80 degrees temperature drops within 2hrs, and snow storms that started as bit of clouds when I was getting into Costco and an absolute horror show on the roads when I got out of Costco. So, assuming that it won't snow, or freezing rain etc. is not the best strategy, it is just wishful thinking. Then on the same Facebook page: "I don;t know what these people think, but if you don't know how to drive, don't go out" etc, etc.

So, how do you measure whether they are worth it or not? Few days ago, lady in Subaru Ascent in front of me, hit the curb with rear right wheel, started to spin, I slammed on brakes, hard-packed slick snow, and stopped maybe 4ft before hitting Subaru. Any other tire but snow tire would not stop, and I was not sure even these would (Blizzak WS90) in time. But those 4ft is what I paid extra money for extra set of tires. They paid off right there that day, although I owned them 3yrs. And here we talk only about material damage.

Yup, C Springs is somewhat famous for a foot of snow falling that is completely melted off in 3 days when the daytime highs hit 55-60 and the sun is out in force. Huge swings in temperature and conditions. (My then-GF, now-wife lived off Woodmen before it was extended so far out— I was stuck in the dorms at USAFA while she was teaching in District 20).

As a tire nerd with who moved around a ton of times (thanks USAF), I would suggest 1) a front wheel drive or AWD vehicle with 2) tall and narrow high-profile tires on 3) smaller diameter wheels. A tire needs to have a lot of siping to hold snow in the tread.

The key is higher ground contact pressure. You want to concentrate the vehicle’s weight on a small contact patch if possible.

This is also why the common advice given out by tire shops and “experts” to always have the best traction tires on the rear is precisely backwards. They want your best tires on the rear for one reason only: liability. They want you to understeer instead of oversteer because they think it’s safer. But it’s not safer to have less overall traction.

Your front tires do the vast majority of braking (due to weight transfer and general weight imbalance), they do all of the steeering, and in a FWD they do all of the acceleration. In what world does it make sense to use lesser tires on the end of the vehicle doing the majority of the work? Your fronts do the majority of the work and provide the most critical traction for stopping and steering, which is critical in bad weather (much more than accelerating traction).

The proof of this is of course that the front tires on FWD and many AWD wear disproportionally fast. Heck, it’s often the case with rwd trucks too that the front wear much faster (very little weight on the rears of a rwd truck not used for actually towing or hauling, which is most trucks).

If the tire shop refuses to put better tires on the front, do it yourself when you get home. They are doing right by themselves and their insurance requirements, NOT by you.

 

[CapriRacer]

This is also why the common advice given out by tire shops and “experts” to always have the best traction tires on the rear is precisely backwards.

Ah .... Mmmm ..... Not exactly

The company I used to work for put on a demonstration every year. They had people drive around a large circular track at about 50 mph. Part of the track had a film of water flowing across it.

The first car had 4 new tires and it drove through the water like it wasn't there.

The second car (identical to the first) had new tires on the rear and worn tires on the front. That car would hydroplane out of the water nose first, and you could regain control after the vehicle left the watered down area.

But the 3rd car (also identical) had new tires on the front and worn tires on the rear - and when it hit the water, the rear would step out and the car would leave the puddle sideways - EVERY TIME!! The driver had to wait for the car to stop before he could regain control.

Thousands of people drove through this demonstration. It was very convincing.

So, No!! New tires go on the rear. Better yet, rotate the tires regularly so the fronts and the rears wear out at the same time.

 

[TiGeo]

Yup, C Springs is somewhat famous for a foot of snow falling that is completely melted off in 3 days when the daytime highs hit 55-60 and the sun is out in force. Huge swings in temperature and conditions. (My then-GF, now-wife lived off Woodmen before it was extended so far out— I was stuck in the dorms at USAFA while she was teaching in District 20).

As a tire nerd with who moved around a ton of times (thanks USAF), I would suggest 1) a front wheel drive or AWD vehicle with 2) tall and narrow high-profile tires on 3) smaller diameter wheels. A tire needs to have a lot of siping to hold snow in the tread.

The key is higher ground contact pressure. You want to concentrate the vehicle’s weight on a small contact patch if possible.

This is also why the common advice given out by tire shops and “experts” to always have the best traction tires on the rear is precisely backwards. They want your best tires on the rear for one reason only: liability. They want you to understeer instead of oversteer because they think it’s safer. But it’s not safer to have less overall traction.

Your front tires do the vast majority of braking (due to weight transfer and general weight imbalance), they do all of the steeering, and in a FWD they do all of the acceleration. In what world does it make sense to use lesser tires on the end of the vehicle doing the majority of the work? Your fronts do the majority of the work and provide the most critical traction for stopping and steering, which is critical in bad weather (much more than accelerating traction).

The proof of this is of course that the front tires on FWD and many AWD wear disproportionally fast. Heck, it’s often the case with rwd trucks too that the front wear much faster (very little weight on the rears of a rwd truck not used for actually towing or hauling, which is most trucks).

If the tire shop refuses to put better tires on the front, do it yourself when you get home. They are doing right by themselves and their insurance requirements, NOT by you.

I'll take the wisdom of Tire Rack and just about all other tire experts (not "experts") and run the best tread depth in the rear for wet/adverse road conditions to avoid the rear end stepping out/hydroplaning if you don't have evenly worn tires.

 

[dadto2]

I've had 2 sets of Nokian Rotiivas on my truck, and just replaced with Nokian Outpost nAT. Great dry/wet/snow traction, ice could be better. If the Outpost APT behaves similarly to the nAT, I would recommend.

 

[Number_35]

Ah .... Mmmm ..... Not exactly

The company I used to work for put on a demonstration every year. They had people drive around a large circular track at about 50 mph. Part of the track had a film of water flowing across it.

The first car had 4 new tires and it drove through the water like it wasn't there.

The second car (identical to the first) had new tires on the rear and worn tires on the front. That car would hydroplane out of the water nose first, and you could regain control after the vehicle left the watered down area.

But the 3rd car (also identical) had new tires on the front and worn tires on the rear - and when it hit the water, the rear would step out and the car would leave the puddle sideways - EVERY TIME!! The driver had to wait for the car to stop before he could regain control.

Thousands of people drove through this demonstration. It was very convincing.

So, No!! New tires go on the rear. Better yet, rotate the tires regularly so the fronts and the rears wear out at the same time.

Many years ago, when FWD was still quite rare, we were visiting my parents' friends in Vancouver. I was reading the local paper, and a columnist mentioned that he'd been out for a walk and noticed a Brit import (Austin Mini?) parked in his neighbourhood. I paraphrase here, but he wrote something like "And then I noticed he had snow tires on the rear wheels, but NOT the front! Heh heh, he must not have known the drive wheels on that car are on the front!"

So I laboured under this impression for years and years, before hearing the argument that if one runs only one pair of winter tires, they should go on the back, regardless of whether the car is FWD or RWD.

 

[userfriendly]

I’m an outlier on this one. My daughter’s 2022 3.6L Acadia came with 235/55R20s which were terrible in rain never mind snow.
Replaced them with 245/70R17E General Arctic with 16/32 tread depth on 17x8 +40 offset wheels.
No more complaints.
She drives around other vehicles stuck in snow and no more hydroplane in torrential west coast rain.

 

[JimPghPA]

CC2 is a fantastic tire. They cost a lot, but last a very long time.

 

[TiGeo]

CC2 is a fantastic tire. They cost a lot, but last a very long time.

This is what I would recommend if you are only dealing with a few snow days vs. a full set of winters/wheels.

 

[dubber09]

There is a number of YT videos on winter driving and how to deal with fishtailing etc and how to correct the car to prevent accidents or ending up in a ditch. It's almost always rear end of the vehicle that loses traction and control first.

 

[Sequoiasoon]

I'm with Astro14 and others. Full set of winters. The one time being able to stop/turn/move when others can't and are headed for you pays for itself. Most of my vehicles I get 6-7 winters from the winter set so they are an investment in family safety. Like others currently that is 4 vehicles, looking for rims for the 5th one. I change them in my driveway, it lets me look at the brakes and other parts at same time. If I need a new jack or cheap impact that is part of investment. Used factory rims in smallest size that fits calipers should be pretty easy to get. Aftermarket rims with everything mounted from TR and others also easy.

I have family and friends that run all weather and are satisfied with performance. Some have second vehicle and run winters on them and if weather is crappy they take that. The All Weather is the "I was out and nothing was forecasted but happened" thing.

From your list, my order if getting only one.

Nokian Remedy WRG5
Nokian Outpost APT
Crossclimate 2
GY Weatherready 2
Pirelli weather active
Continental LX25
Pirelli AS3
Bridgestone weatherpeak
Bridgestone alenza ultra

But there are also other choices.
These video's and results may help guide you.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/videoDisplay.jsp?ttid=328

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/videoDisplay.jsp?ttid=336

Winter Tires-
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/videoDisplay.jsp?ttid=304

Kids/wife are on Continental Winters currenty, I'm on Goodyear WinterCommand but probably not next time. Tires work well but balance issues that won't go away and not spending more after multiple road force.

 

[KevinMalone]

CC2 is a fantastic tire. They cost a lot, but last a very long time.

One tire to rule them all

 

[Hohn]

Ah .... Mmmm ..... Not exactly

The company I used to work for put on a demonstration every year. They had people drive around a large circular track at about 50 mph. Part of the track had a film of water flowing across it.

The first car had 4 new tires and it drove through the water like it wasn't there.

The second car (identical to the first) had new tires on the rear and worn tires on the front. That car would hydroplane out of the water nose first, and you could regain control after the vehicle left the watered down area.

But the 3rd car (also identical) had new tires on the front and worn tires on the rear - and when it hit the water, the rear would step out and the car would leave the puddle sideways - EVERY TIME!! The driver had to wait for the car to stop before he could regain control.

Thousands of people drove through this demonstration. It was very convincing.

So, No!! New tires go on the rear. Better yet, rotate the tires regularly so the fronts and the rears wear out at the same time.

This is a test designed to illustrate a pre-ordained outcome by putting nearly bald tires on a circular track (meaning constant turns). And of course, most people can’t even do basic oversteer correction.

Yes, if you have nearly bald tires in the back and you are driving too fast for conditions going in a circle, having better tires on the rear will be more stable. And in exchange for that, you will have much longer stopping distances and in every other condition you will have less overall traction.

It’s easy to mitigate hydroplaning traction loss modes. You can slow down and mitigate it. You can maintain tires with some tread. And if you follow my advice and choose tall narrow tires with higher contact pressure, you will even more easily prevent hydroplaning traction loss. Ask a truck driver how much they worry about hydroplaning, he’ll tell you: very little, even with basic rib tires not known for water evacuation ability.

But the conditions over which you have little to no control—slower speed on wet roads, snow, ice, all are WORSE if you compromise front end performance for rear end performance.

Choosing worse performance under conditions you cannot mitigate to improve performance for one of the few conditions you can mitigate is unwise.

 

[Hohn]

There is a number of YT videos on winter driving and how to deal with fishtailing etc and how to correct the car to prevent accidents or ending up in a ditch. It's almost always rear end of the vehicle that loses traction and control first.

I grew up WI and ND driving in brutal winters, at first in a rwd 1967 coronet that would lock the rear drums in a heartbeat.

I learned to drive in winter conditions. Not from watching a video but from experience. And of course experience comes from bad judgment. I became a very good winter driver by starting out as a very bad one and having to figure it out. Nobody is born with the skill, you have to acquire it.

I acquired it unintentionally because it was just necessary.

Many people have never had to. So they never did.

 

[Hohn]

CC2 is a fantastic tire. They cost a lot, but last a very long time.

It’s in my short list. Reviews are glowing everywhere I’ve looked.

 

[Hohn]

Many years ago, when FWD was still quite rare, we were visiting my parents' friends in Vancouver. I was reading the local paper, and a columnist mentioned that he'd been out for a walk and noticed a Brit import (Austin Mini?) parked in his neighbourhood. I paraphrase here, but he wrote something like "And then I noticed he had snow tires on the rear wheels, but NOT the front! Heh heh, he must not have known the drive wheels on that car are on the front!"

So I laboured under this impression for years and years, before hearing the argument that if one runs only one pair of winter tires, they should go on the back, regardless of whether the car is FWD or RWD.

It’s a stability vs traction tradeoff. Absolutely there is less total traction available. But it’s also more stable. The opposite is what I advocate, so I’m outside the mainstream on this.

Pick which you need more.

 

[y_p_w]

I grew up WI and ND driving in brutal winters, at first in a rwd 1967 coronet that would lock the rear drums in a heartbeat.

I learned to drive in winter conditions. Not from watching a video but from experience. And of course experience comes from bad judgment. I became a very good winter driver by starting out as a very bad one and having to figure it out. Nobody is born with the skill, you have to acquire it.

I acquired it unintentionally because it was just necessary.

Many people have never had to. So they never did.

Yeah. You'd be surprised how many people go up to the mountains to play in the snow but have no idea how to control a vehicle.

I'm still not that good at it, but I have slid out before where I just plowed into a snowbank. I remember practicing in a snowy parking lot where my first attempt to brake resulted in my car slowly gliding a few inches past where I meant to stop.

 

[Hohn]

Yeah. You'd be surprised how many people go up to the mountains to play in the snow but have no idea how to control a vehicle.

I'm still not that good at it, but I have slid out before where I just plowed into a snowbank. I remember practicing in a snowy parking lot where my first attempt to brake resulted in my car slowly gliding a few inches past where I meant to stop.

I’d be less surprised than you think; I’ve seen some absolutely terrible driving in snow. Things like aggressively pulling out to pass in a blinding blizzard coming back from a-basin.

 

[y_p_w]

I’d be less surprised than you think; I’ve seen some absolutely terrible driving in snow. Things like aggressively pulling out to pass in a blinding blizzard coming back from a-basin.

I remember my first time driving in heavy snow. Nearly whiteout conditions on US-50 driving home from Lake Tahoe. I had a Subaru but a questionable tire choice (some weird excuse for an all-season tire). But I'm still alive. In the meantime I saw a large SUV being pulled out of the snow on the side of the road. Also saw what must have been a RWD pickup truck (I believe nothing in the bed) just spinning its wheels trying to get out of a parking lot.

But yeah I've lost control and feel fortunate that I didn't damage my car. I think the most fun was once I saw like a foot of snow piled in a turnout in Yosemite Valley and I just went right into it intentionally. Traction was poor, but I was able to eventually just power my way through it, but with a lot of slipping. That's when I figured out how bad traction can get in deep snow.

 

[Ranger83]

Every pair of Bridgestone tires I have owned wear out way too fast. I quit buying them.

Subaru used to equip Outbacks with Bridgestone Potenza Re92’s. They were rated 23rd out of 25 A/S tires on snow and ice.

A friend of mine got tboned after picking up his new Outback in Maine in a snowstorm, then sliding through the stop sign right next to the dealership.

 

[Hohn]

Subaru used to equip Outbacks with Bridgestone Potenza Re92’s. They were rated 23rd out of 25 A/S tires on snow and ice.

A friend of mine got tboned after picking up his new Outback in Maine in a snowstorm, then sliding through the stop sign right next to the dealership.

Oh, that is so sad!! Your poor friend. I’m sure insurance would not have given him what he’d just paid.