If I lived in an area that lost power a lot I'd bite the bullet and install a natural gas standby.
Need help with selecting a good portable generator
- Thread starter ethangsmith
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The Sump pump is 120V, as is the blower motor on my oil boiler.
I think the OP's original statement of 3250 is good. look at the fuel burn between the 3250 and the 5k/6k. it needs just over HALF the burn rate.
I ran my home's fridge, CFLs, radio, ceiling fans, floor fans, and with discipline the microwave off a 2k inverter unit during the 5 day outage we had here. oh and the neighbor's fridge too. And I needed under 3 gallons per day, 24 hours on per day. 2kw inverter runs circular saw, shop vac, and other hand tools regularly.... i think a 1/3 hp sump pump is doable, however an inverter unit would probably have to be "eco-off" for the startup, especially if other big loads are present.
For that reason, a 2k is a bit small--- there is an above post that is so true--- you'll be frustrated that it isn't enough when you want to run more, unless you don't want to worry about storing much fuel. a 2k would work, if you don't mind managin the power carefully. A 3k would have given plenty, plus some headroom to run a space heater in the winter to keep a room tolerable.
When I had to back up the house, I made a quick 15A suicide cord during the outage, and hated it. it worked. As soon as I saved after that, I installed a transfer switch. I later read up on isolation switches, cheaper and easier and legal--- wish I'd done that. it's ok.
i then sold the 2k and bought a 3k. i stayed with inverter. why? 2k worked but yes there's wisdom in that it wasn't enough. if I was going to install an xfer switch, I might as well be able to make it wasy enough that we didn't have to shut down the house to run the microwave. Also, I stayed with an inverter because of fuel burn. you don't realize how hard it is to get gas.... until you can't.... and then you spend a lot of time a) monitoring what fuel you have b) worrying about burn rate c) driving waaay out to get it --- and all of the sudden you become a slave to the chore instead of just staying simple and working on cleanup, time with the family, fixing whatever damage you had, worrying about how to get to work...
do the math--- a 5k unit needs how much fuel to get you 5 days of safe food.....
random thoughts--- everyone has different expectations and tolerance. the fuel thing, hvac, hot water, will have different value depending on who you are. I want to sleep at night, which means the kids need night lights, fans to stay as comfortable as we can, and a heat source. that means duration runs for me.
I ran my home's fridge, CFLs, radio, ceiling fans, floor fans, and with discipline the microwave off a 2k inverter unit during the 5 day outage we had here. oh and the neighbor's fridge too. And I needed under 3 gallons per day, 24 hours on per day. 2kw inverter runs circular saw, shop vac, and other hand tools regularly.... i think a 1/3 hp sump pump is doable, however an inverter unit would probably have to be "eco-off" for the startup, especially if other big loads are present.
For that reason, a 2k is a bit small--- there is an above post that is so true--- you'll be frustrated that it isn't enough when you want to run more, unless you don't want to worry about storing much fuel. a 2k would work, if you don't mind managin the power carefully. A 3k would have given plenty, plus some headroom to run a space heater in the winter to keep a room tolerable.
When I had to back up the house, I made a quick 15A suicide cord during the outage, and hated it. it worked. As soon as I saved after that, I installed a transfer switch. I later read up on isolation switches, cheaper and easier and legal--- wish I'd done that. it's ok.
i then sold the 2k and bought a 3k. i stayed with inverter. why? 2k worked but yes there's wisdom in that it wasn't enough. if I was going to install an xfer switch, I might as well be able to make it wasy enough that we didn't have to shut down the house to run the microwave. Also, I stayed with an inverter because of fuel burn. you don't realize how hard it is to get gas.... until you can't.... and then you spend a lot of time a) monitoring what fuel you have b) worrying about burn rate c) driving waaay out to get it --- and all of the sudden you become a slave to the chore instead of just staying simple and working on cleanup, time with the family, fixing whatever damage you had, worrying about how to get to work...
do the math--- a 5k unit needs how much fuel to get you 5 days of safe food.....
random thoughts--- everyone has different expectations and tolerance. the fuel thing, hvac, hot water, will have different value depending on who you are. I want to sleep at night, which means the kids need night lights, fans to stay as comfortable as we can, and a heat source. that means duration runs for me.
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You'll definitely want something bigger than your expected peak usage, as generators are usually not designed to run at 100% load. Another thing you'll need is a solution to get the power into the house. If you have the money to drop on a transfer box, you'll either have to install it yourself or pay an electrician to do it. If you do it yourself, plan a whole day to get it done. Coincidentally i decided to install my generator inlet right after i had installed my new 200 amp main panel, and instead of taking the circuits back out of the main box and installing a transfer switch, i installed a double pole breaker in the main panel to use as a backfeed. From there i ran 10/3 to the outside inlet box.
Note that if you do use this method, you will need to also install an interlock device on your main panel. They run about $150 and they're very easy to install. It basically ensures that you can't feed generator power into the panel without the main switch in the open position. Most people think oh i'm the only one in the house who messes with that stuff, i don't need one. Truth is you do. If someone starts messing with the generator and you're away from the house, if done improperly it can destroy your generator or fry a lineman. Plus it's also code almost everywhere you go.
Note that if you do use this method, you will need to also install an interlock device on your main panel. They run about $150 and they're very easy to install. It basically ensures that you can't feed generator power into the panel without the main switch in the open position. Most people think oh i'm the only one in the house who messes with that stuff, i don't need one. Truth is you do. If someone starts messing with the generator and you're away from the house, if done improperly it can destroy your generator or fry a lineman. Plus it's also code almost everywhere you go.
Ethangsmith: And how much is the start-up surge on the water circulation pump on the boiler?
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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
The little Honda and Subary generators good for 1.5-2kW are really where it's at, IMO.
Agreed.
During times of disaster, you better get used to getting by with little to nothing.
Bigger isn't better when you need to supply it with fuel. Get the smallest you can get by with, thus the "portable generator" concept. I'd rather have two ~2K units than a 5K+ 'portable'.
Like said, if you live were a fair amount of power is a necessity, you need a standby unit.
Joel
The little Honda and Subary generators good for 1.5-2kW are really where it's at, IMO.
Agreed.
During times of disaster, you better get used to getting by with little to nothing.
Bigger isn't better when you need to supply it with fuel. Get the smallest you can get by with, thus the "portable generator" concept. I'd rather have two ~2K units than a 5K+ 'portable'.
Like said, if you live were a fair amount of power is a necessity, you need a standby unit.
Joel
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It's a modern Taco cartridge unit that draws only about 1A. I can't find much on start up amps, but I would assume it wouldn't exceed 2-3A. The burner motor uses maybe 5A, if that. I can't find any specific data on it as it's an older Beckett unit.
I am honestly mainly concerned about the sump pump only. The fridge would be a bonus, and I'm not really concerned much about the boiler as I have Kerosene heaters that would work just fine to heat the house (I am a middle unit in a set of brick and concrete rowhomes built in 1925- a little heat goes a loooong way!). The key here is that I live in a town that has an infamous history of flooding. We are over 2 blocks from the creek, but I get tons of groundwater seepage and if I don't have an operating sump pump, even for a few minutes, I can have some major damage in my basement. I have direct access to my basement from the rear of the house, so running extension cords to the sump pump, which is right inside the rear door, and to the fridge in the kitchen, which is right inside my back door, is not a problem at all. It would be about a 30 foot run if I run the generator out on my patio.
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
Ethangsmith: And how much is the start-up surge on the water circulation pump on the boiler?
I am honestly mainly concerned about the sump pump only. The fridge would be a bonus, and I'm not really concerned much about the boiler as I have Kerosene heaters that would work just fine to heat the house (I am a middle unit in a set of brick and concrete rowhomes built in 1925- a little heat goes a loooong way!). The key here is that I live in a town that has an infamous history of flooding. We are over 2 blocks from the creek, but I get tons of groundwater seepage and if I don't have an operating sump pump, even for a few minutes, I can have some major damage in my basement. I have direct access to my basement from the rear of the house, so running extension cords to the sump pump, which is right inside the rear door, and to the fridge in the kitchen, which is right inside my back door, is not a problem at all. It would be about a 30 foot run if I run the generator out on my patio.
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
Ethangsmith: And how much is the start-up surge on the water circulation pump on the boiler?
Eathangsmith. You lucked out with having a modern Taco pump. Some people have old cast iron monster pumps with big motors on them.
It sounds like with all of your post, the sump pump will be the biggest start-up surge. So if with all the other stuff running, the peak wattage ratting is more than the sum total running + the start of the sump pump, then the generator should be enough.
To keep cost down you can make your own extension cord using outdoor rated 10 Gauge house wire, with plugs you purchase at someplace like Lowes, or HomeDepo.
Measure from where you will be chaining the generator to something far from the house to where you will be making the connection to figure out how long of a wire you will require. Ideal length would be 50 Feet. Shorter than that and it will be too loud, and much shorter than that and you risk carbon-monoxide poisoning. Much more than 75 feet and you have to start thinking 8 Gauge. If it is 100 feet or more definitely go with 8 Gauge.
Along with something to chain it to, and a hefty chain and a big lock, think about a tarp and rope and means to keep the tarp above the area so plenty of air flows but the tarp keeps rain and snow off of the gen-set. It is also a good idea to have a good electrical ground for the frame of the gen-set.
You are going to require gas cans, and Sta-Bil gas treatment. Get a long plastic funnel at Pep-Boys and cut the bottom off with a utility knife so it fits properly in the generators tank.
When you finish running the generator each time drain the fuel bowl of the carb AFTER THE ENGINE HAS COOLED OFF. Then spray some WD40 down the idle air hole on the floor of the carb just behind the choke plate so the coating of the ethanol in the gas does cause corrosion and blockage of the idle circuit of the carb.
Good Luck.
It sounds like with all of your post, the sump pump will be the biggest start-up surge. So if with all the other stuff running, the peak wattage ratting is more than the sum total running + the start of the sump pump, then the generator should be enough.
To keep cost down you can make your own extension cord using outdoor rated 10 Gauge house wire, with plugs you purchase at someplace like Lowes, or HomeDepo.
Measure from where you will be chaining the generator to something far from the house to where you will be making the connection to figure out how long of a wire you will require. Ideal length would be 50 Feet. Shorter than that and it will be too loud, and much shorter than that and you risk carbon-monoxide poisoning. Much more than 75 feet and you have to start thinking 8 Gauge. If it is 100 feet or more definitely go with 8 Gauge.
Along with something to chain it to, and a hefty chain and a big lock, think about a tarp and rope and means to keep the tarp above the area so plenty of air flows but the tarp keeps rain and snow off of the gen-set. It is also a good idea to have a good electrical ground for the frame of the gen-set.
You are going to require gas cans, and Sta-Bil gas treatment. Get a long plastic funnel at Pep-Boys and cut the bottom off with a utility knife so it fits properly in the generators tank.
When you finish running the generator each time drain the fuel bowl of the carb AFTER THE ENGINE HAS COOLED OFF. Then spray some WD40 down the idle air hole on the floor of the carb just behind the choke plate so the coating of the ethanol in the gas does cause corrosion and blockage of the idle circuit of the carb.
Good Luck.
Do not store the generator in freezing temperatures. Most generator have a capacitor in them as part of the voltage regulation of the generator. If that capacitor freezes (its freezing temperature is lower than 32F, but it can be frozen), the expanding ice crystals inside of the capacitor will damage the capacitor and the generator will not work. Store the generator in an area where it can not be exposed to freezing temperatures. And if you have to bring it into the house, you may want to remove the gas tank and not bring that into the house. Especially if the smell of the gas can get to the air everyone in the house breathes, or the fumes from the gas can get to a furnace flame or a water heater flame.
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Eathangsmith, when you are running the house from the gen-set, disconnect the microwave, convection (toaster) oven, toaster, and turn off the circuit breaker for them, and inform everyone that they can only be ran one at a time, and then only when all the other items the generator is running are first disconnected. Confiscate all hair dryer curling-irons, and anything else that draws a lot of power, and again tell everyone they can only be ran one at a time and only when all other items are first disconnected.
Microwave ovens have a huge draw for the first few cycles of AC each time the oven comes on. If you run them less than full power they cycle on and off.
If you do run a microwave oven from a generator it should be a small one, not one of the bigger ones. Even the small ones have a huge surge draw for the first few cycles of AC power every time it comes on.
You could also reduce the load on your generator by reducing the number of light bulbs that come on in fixtures with more than one bulb, and reducing the number of bulbs that come on in rooms with more than one bulb.
The big draw items like microwave ovens, toaster ovens, toasters, hair dryers, curling-irons, and any thing else with a high power draw, must be strictly rationed so you do not burn out the generator by over-loading it.
Do not count on the circuit breaker on the generator to protect the generator. You can fry a generator by running it close to full power for a long time without tripping the circuit breaker.
Microwave ovens have a huge draw for the first few cycles of AC each time the oven comes on. If you run them less than full power they cycle on and off.
If you do run a microwave oven from a generator it should be a small one, not one of the bigger ones. Even the small ones have a huge surge draw for the first few cycles of AC power every time it comes on.
You could also reduce the load on your generator by reducing the number of light bulbs that come on in fixtures with more than one bulb, and reducing the number of bulbs that come on in rooms with more than one bulb.
The big draw items like microwave ovens, toaster ovens, toasters, hair dryers, curling-irons, and any thing else with a high power draw, must be strictly rationed so you do not burn out the generator by over-loading it.
Do not count on the circuit breaker on the generator to protect the generator. You can fry a generator by running it close to full power for a long time without tripping the circuit breaker.
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RE: your post of:
It would be about a 30 foot run if I run the generator out on my patio.
You want to get the gen-set far from any structure. One of the problems with generators is that they will burn up by recirculating the same cooling air. Cujet here on BITOG post about OPE burning up because of being placed near a structure that causes them to recirculate the same air over and over again. They must be away from structures that would cause them to pull the same cooling air in more than once. Also you do not want them anywhere near a structure that is occupied because of the noise (do not under estimate the noise it is really very loud), and the carbon-monoxide. There was something on the news today about someone dying because of carbon-monoxide from a generator.
It would be about a 30 foot run if I run the generator out on my patio.
You want to get the gen-set far from any structure. One of the problems with generators is that they will burn up by recirculating the same cooling air. Cujet here on BITOG post about OPE burning up because of being placed near a structure that causes them to recirculate the same air over and over again. They must be away from structures that would cause them to pull the same cooling air in more than once. Also you do not want them anywhere near a structure that is occupied because of the noise (do not under estimate the noise it is really very loud), and the carbon-monoxide. There was something on the news today about someone dying because of carbon-monoxide from a generator.
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
Do not store the generator in freezing temperatures. Most generator have a capacitor in them as part of the voltage regulation of the generator. If that capacitor freezes (its freezing temperature is lower than 32F, but it can be frozen), the expanding ice crystals inside of the capacitor will damage the capacitor and the generator will not work. Store the generator in an area where it can not be exposed to freezing temperatures.
Crud, I did not realize that about the capacitor. That means I don't have any place to store a generator--I was just going to make a doghouse for mine, chaining it to the deck.
Do not store the generator in freezing temperatures. Most generator have a capacitor in them as part of the voltage regulation of the generator. If that capacitor freezes (its freezing temperature is lower than 32F, but it can be frozen), the expanding ice crystals inside of the capacitor will damage the capacitor and the generator will not work. Store the generator in an area where it can not be exposed to freezing temperatures.
Crud, I did not realize that about the capacitor. That means I don't have any place to store a generator--I was just going to make a doghouse for mine, chaining it to the deck.
One of the best things we did when we built our home was to include a whole house generator that runs off the propane tank. It was (in 1995) about an extra $4,000, but it's paid for itself several times over in convenience. We've lost power a number of times in the dead of winter, and I can have everything back up and running in a matter of a couple minutes.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
Do not store the generator in freezing temperatures. Most generator have a capacitor in them as part of the voltage regulation of the generator. If that capacitor freezes (its freezing temperature is lower than 32F, but it can be frozen), the expanding ice crystals inside of the capacitor will damage the capacitor and the generator will not work. Store the generator in an area where it can not be exposed to freezing temperatures.
Crud, I did not realize that about the capacitor. That means I don't have any place to store a generator--I was just going to make a doghouse for mine, chaining it to the deck.
My generator (above) has sat in freezing temperatures without an issue, every winter for 17 years. Since a minutes worth of research on Google tells me that the working temperature of a capacitor is normally down to about 14 degrees F, and I've had zero issues with mine even in sub zero temperatures, I wouldn't worry about the capacitor issue.
At least around here, there are a lot of generators stored outdoors on RVs or in sheds, and I don't recall anyone ever having an issue with them. Most quality generators are designed to be run in temperature extremes and do so without an issue.
If it's one of the elcheapo generators, then anything is possible.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
Do not store the generator in freezing temperatures. Most generator have a capacitor in them as part of the voltage regulation of the generator. If that capacitor freezes (its freezing temperature is lower than 32F, but it can be frozen), the expanding ice crystals inside of the capacitor will damage the capacitor and the generator will not work. Store the generator in an area where it can not be exposed to freezing temperatures.
Crud, I did not realize that about the capacitor. That means I don't have any place to store a generator--I was just going to make a doghouse for mine, chaining it to the deck.
My generator (above) has sat in freezing temperatures without an issue, every winter for 17 years. Since a minutes worth of research on Google tells me that the working temperature of a capacitor is normally down to about 14 degrees F, and I've had zero issues with mine even in sub zero temperatures, I wouldn't worry about the capacitor issue.
At least around here, there are a lot of generators stored outdoors on RVs or in sheds, and I don't recall anyone ever having an issue with them. Most quality generators are designed to be run in temperature extremes and do so without an issue.
If it's one of the elcheapo generators, then anything is possible.
ethangsmith, I live up the road from you in palmyra and I'm in the same boat as you. We didn't loose power this time around, but my wife is pregnant with our first son together and is due in february. I worry about loosing power and keeping her and the baby warm once he comes, so we're going to start looking for a generator that will atleast run our furnace and sump pump, i'm interested to see what you wind up getting. I've driven through manheim many times while its raining, and I can definately attest to the flooding problem, especially along 72. We have some of the same problems in Palmyra, mainly due to the poor strom drain system. The sink holes aren't much fun either
Capacitor temperature range depends heavily upon the type of capacitor, and what the manufacturer claims it will do. Normally some variation in value is seen over temperature. I have no idea what the capacitor in question is, but, since at the moment I'm leaning towards an elcheapo generator (I've needed one only once in 8 years--but I needed it for 3 days during an ice storm) and leaving it outside, it is another consideration to keep in mind.
Ethangsmith, Electric Generators Direct (an internet store) sells a small, furnace transfer switch, made for transferring one circuit to an extension cord from the generator. If the power draw of your sump pump and fridge are low enough you could tie them all to the furnace and install one of those low cost transfer switches and use that to tie in the generator.
BTW, did you see the news clip about the two mile line to purchase gasoline in NY. The reporter said that the station was limiting the sale to $20 per person. And while the report was going on, said that the station has just now run out of gasoline, and the police who were present, though everyone was being patient and orderly, were now going to have to go tell everyone in line that the station is out of gas.
So, one of the questions to ask yourself is how many days worth of gasoline are you going to store.
BTW, did you see the news clip about the two mile line to purchase gasoline in NY. The reporter said that the station was limiting the sale to $20 per person. And while the report was going on, said that the station has just now run out of gasoline, and the police who were present, though everyone was being patient and orderly, were now going to have to go tell everyone in line that the station is out of gas.
So, one of the questions to ask yourself is how many days worth of gasoline are you going to store.
RE: the capacitor freezing issue. It is one of those things that you may get away with, and then again it is also one of those things that can sneak up and cause a problem.
Just dotting the i's and crossing the t's, so is not one of those things that come out of no where and blind side you.
And the windings in you generator fair much better if you keep them so no rain, snow, or even condensation can get to them.
Yes some people store generators outside and expose them to freezing conditions and get away with it. And some people have generators fail and wonder why. In general if you treat it well it is more reliable.
Just dotting the i's and crossing the t's, so is not one of those things that come out of no where and blind side you.
And the windings in you generator fair much better if you keep them so no rain, snow, or even condensation can get to them.
Yes some people store generators outside and expose them to freezing conditions and get away with it. And some people have generators fail and wonder why. In general if you treat it well it is more reliable.
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Originally Posted By: afoulk
ethangsmith, I live up the road from you in palmyra and I'm in the same boat as you. We didn't loose power this time around, but my wife is pregnant with our first son together and is due in february. I worry about loosing power and keeping her and the baby warm once he comes, so we're going to start looking for a generator that will atleast run our furnace and sump pump, i'm interested to see what you wind up getting. I've driven through manheim many times while its raining, and I can definately attest to the flooding problem, especially along 72. We have some of the same problems in Palmyra, mainly due to the poor strom drain system. The sink holes aren't much fun either
Yea, I was a bit on edge this past storm. We live in the south end of town behind the fire hall and it can get quite wet here quickly. I'm still having a hard time nailing down what size (Wattage) generator I will ultimately need. I don't want to go TOO big, but I certainly want to have enough power. I may put in a transfer switch at least at the boiler, but even that will be in the future. I just am not sure if the 3250W Generac would be enough. I am now looking at the 5500W Generac on Home Depot's site. It's about $700, but I think it would do the trick. I am very leery of Chinese or off-brand units, even if they are supposedly well made. Tractor Supply has a 4000W "Champion" generator that gets good marks, but again, it seems to be in initial quality and no one seems to be able to verify long-term reliability. A Honda generator would be awesome, except there is simply no way I could afford one. So it seems Generac would be a good decision, although I have not ruled out a few others as well. I need to learn more about how to wire in transfer switches yet too....
ethangsmith, I live up the road from you in palmyra and I'm in the same boat as you. We didn't loose power this time around, but my wife is pregnant with our first son together and is due in february. I worry about loosing power and keeping her and the baby warm once he comes, so we're going to start looking for a generator that will atleast run our furnace and sump pump, i'm interested to see what you wind up getting. I've driven through manheim many times while its raining, and I can definately attest to the flooding problem, especially along 72. We have some of the same problems in Palmyra, mainly due to the poor strom drain system. The sink holes aren't much fun either
Yea, I was a bit on edge this past storm. We live in the south end of town behind the fire hall and it can get quite wet here quickly. I'm still having a hard time nailing down what size (Wattage) generator I will ultimately need. I don't want to go TOO big, but I certainly want to have enough power. I may put in a transfer switch at least at the boiler, but even that will be in the future. I just am not sure if the 3250W Generac would be enough. I am now looking at the 5500W Generac on Home Depot's site. It's about $700, but I think it would do the trick. I am very leery of Chinese or off-brand units, even if they are supposedly well made. Tractor Supply has a 4000W "Champion" generator that gets good marks, but again, it seems to be in initial quality and no one seems to be able to verify long-term reliability. A Honda generator would be awesome, except there is simply no way I could afford one. So it seems Generac would be a good decision, although I have not ruled out a few others as well. I need to learn more about how to wire in transfer switches yet too....
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