Generator vs Inverter Generator

[Donald]

Wife is suggesting we get a generator. Not sure what calamity she thinks will be coming to Delaware. But from what I have seen and in info provided by power company the number of power failures a year is very small.

We have probably 300 gallons of propane most of the time in an underground tank. So seems like an ideal fuel.

I have two Trans heat pumps with electric resistance booster coils so if I wanted to power them I would need a huge generator.

Maybe the more reasonable approach is a 5000 inverter generator that can power some basics like lights, refrig, microwave and fan for the gas fireplace.

A normal consumer generator runs at 3600 RPM all the time regardless of load. Obviously is uses more power (and fuel). when it's putting out 5000 watts vs 1000 watts.

I have never had an inverter generator but assume it to some extent varies the RPM and fuel usage depending upon the load.

So a 5000 inverter generator putting out 1000 watts would use a lot less fuel than a regular 5000 generator putting out 1000 watts

Also considered getting a diesel generator on a trailer and if there's was a long power failures then tow it to my home from a storage place and start it up. But that would mean a good about of wiring to accept say 100 amps from a generator.

 

[wwillson]

So a 5000 inverter generator putting out 1000 watts would use a lot less fuel than a regular 5000 generator putting out 1000 watts

Yes, the inverter generator will down speed when it doesn't need the RPMs to keep up with the electrical load. They are much quieter and use less fuel.

 

[ctechbob]

The alternative to running the whole house is just to power certain circuits. They have transfer panels that will do just that. I use a 6 circuit panel from Reliance Controls (Pro-Tran 2).

I originally installed it for power outage situations. I have a 4000 watt continuous inverter generator that plugs into the panel and the circuits I chose to power are.

Master Bedroom 12,000 BTU Heat Pump/Mini Split
3 Lighting Circuits, which will light most of the house
Kitchen circuit that has the fridge
Bedroom outlets

I think that's right as I recall. Could be off by a circuit or two.

Ever since I completed the solar install on my camper, I use the camper and the power system in it to run my Mini Split (and currently the christmas lights). If it came down to it and I needed to power the rest of the circuits, I would probably use the generator to charge the batteries in the camper on an intermittent basis and just rely on that. More efficient in the end for me and I have plenty of battery/inverter to make it work.

Sorry, that's dragging off topic.

For you, a propane fired or dual fuel inverter unit and a 6-10 circuit transfer panel will probably get you what you want.

If there is one downside to the inverter route, it is that you won't be running any 240v circuits off of a 'normal' inverter unit (Without getting creative that is).

 

[RhondaHonda]

I’d buy a Predator and put a few circuits on the transfer panel. I picked up a 3500 watt version but haven’t had a transfer switch panel wired in yet. I can run a fridge via extension cords and have 3 gas fireplaces to heat the house in the winter. I just couldn’t rationalize a $30,000 generator with as stable as my power is. A $650 generator saves about that in groceries with one outage, so it pays for itself if I ever need it.

 

[fsdork]

I wouldn't go down this rabbit hole if someone was looking for a smaller inverter generator, full stop - but since you mentioned going big with a diesel generator on a trailer, I would recommend looking into a system with a Victron MultiPlus and a modest (or not so modest) battery bank. The ability of the MultiPlus to manage loads is incredible for the price. Victron's YouTube channel has lots of real-world install examples of varying scales. Solar is usually a key component, but there's nothing stopping someone from using a generator as the sole source of charging.

As for the resistance heating vs propane stove, I think you're leaning in the right direction there. Trying to heat with electricity in a power outage is far from ideal.

 

[ctechbob]

I wouldn't go down this rabbit hole if someone was looking for a smaller inverter generator, full stop - but since you mentioned going big with a diesel generator on a trailer, I would recommend looking into a system with a Victron MultiPlus and a modest (or not so modest) battery bank. The ability of the MultiPlus to manage loads is incredible for the price. Victron's YouTube channel has lots of real-world install examples of varying scales. Solar is usually a key component, but there's nothing stopping someone from using a generator as the sole source of charging.

As for the resistance heating vs propane stove, I think you're leaning in the right direction there. Trying to heat with electricity in a power outage is far from ideal.

Just installed one in my camper. The Victron gear is solid.

I've already started thinking about a whole house solar/battery setup using Victron gear.

 

[oldcodger]

I would install a panel interlock or a GenerLink and connector for the generator. This way gives you access to all circuits in your panel. Of course not all at the same time.

 

[Donald]

The alternative to running the whole house is just to power certain circuits. They have transfer panels that will do just that. I use a 6 circuit panel from Reliance Controls (Pro-Tran 2).

I originally installed it for power outage situations. I have a 4000 watt continuous inverter generator that plugs into the panel and the circuits I chose to power are.

Master Bedroom 12,000 BTU Heat Pump/Mini Split
3 Lighting Circuits, which will light most of the house
Kitchen circuit that has the fridge
Bedroom outlets

I think that's right as I recall. Could be off by a circuit or two.

Ever since I completed the solar install on my camper, I use the camper and the power system in it to run my Mini Split (and currently the christmas lights). If it came down to it and I needed to power the rest of the circuits, I would probably use the generator to charge the batteries in the camper on an intermittent basis and just rely on that. More efficient in the end for me and I have plenty of battery/inverter to make it work.

Sorry, that's dragging off topic.

For you, a propane fired or dual fuel inverter unit and a 6-10 circuit transfer panel will probably get you what you want.

If there is one downside to the inverter route, it is that you won't be running any 240v circuits off of a 'normal' inverter unit (Without getting creative that is).

So the inverter generator are 120v only? Did not catch that.

 

[Donald]

I would install a panel interlock or a GenerLink and connector for the generator. This way gives you access to all circuits in your panel. Of course not all at the same time.

Having access to all the circuits sounds nice but all the ones beyond a few lights and refrig are 220V and most 30 amp or above. So unless I buy a 20 KW or larger generator there is not much sense in having access to all the circuits.

 

[ctechbob]

So the inverter generator are 120v only? Did not catch that.

Mine is, yes. Most all of the consumer ones that I've seen are as well.

 

[TheLastWord]

So the inverter generator are 120v only? Did not catch that.

Says who?

Plenty of gas and propane 120/240V inverters. Generally 5000W and up.

 

[eljefino]

Does the gas fireplace actually give off useable heat? Try running just it on one of your colder nights, shut off the heat pumps.

If it doesn't a wall mounted "monitor heater" is a great backup heat source that requires little or no electricity and they aren't terribly expensive.

What are your other essentials? Well water or city?

Your gas dealer may or may not want you to have a "permanent" installation to the tank. Keep that in mind choosing between portable, fixed portable, and fixed models.

 

[Ranger83]

///.

If there is one downside to the inverter route, it is that you won't be running any 240v circuits off of a 'normal' inverter unit (Without getting creative that is).

Generally anything offered as “transfer switch ready” will have 240 output.

We have a Briggs & Stratton Q6500 (5000w continuous) with 240. Uses less fuel than spec (spec is 14 hours at 25% load, 5 gallon tank), fairly quiet, but moves around on the built in wheels and is manual start only. Much less expensive than the large Honda or Yamaha inverters with 240. The Honda 7000 has fuel injection.

Q6500 QuietPower™ Series Inverter Generator | Briggs & Stratton

The Briggs & Stratton Q6500 QuietPower™ inverter generator is 60% quieter* than standard generators. It is also safe for powering your sensitive equipment.

www.briggsandstratton.com

HF has one that is going on Black Friday sale, $500 off.

https://www.harborfreight.com/9500-watt-super-quiet-inverter-generator-with-co-secure-technology-epa-71365.html

Champion has several dual and tri fuel models. Often stocked at Tractor Supply.

9000W Electric Start Tri Fuel Open Frame Inverter with CO Shield® – Champion Power Equipment

Champion’s Tri Fuel Open Frame Inverter with CO Shield® is 50% quieter and 20% lighter than a traditional 7250-watt generator. Our advanced power solution includes Quiet Technology, Extended Run Time, Economy Mode and Clean Power. It also uses Tri Fuel technology, allowing it to run on natural...

www.championpowerequipment.com

 

[SC Maintenance]

The first thing you need to do is figure out what loads you wish to run. You can do this with a kill-a-watt type device, or a clamp on meter. I have both. I don't think the kill-a-watt is fast enough to pick up the start up surge current needed so I recommend rigging up short extension cord with the individual conductors exposed (still insulated individually) and use a clamp on meter set to max current. Fans and lights pull mostly nothing, The fridge will likely pull 1000W, more at peak but once running 1000W is likely. If your going to try to run heat pumps and such you really need a more permanent, larger generator install, IMHO, unless I mis-understand what they are.

Inverter generators do in fact come with 240V, but in the much larger sizes. Realize 30A x 240V = 7200W, so your probably not getting into 30A inverters until the 8000W versions. Also most inverter generators I have seen once its pulling over 50% load the inverter turns off and it goes into generator mode / 3600 RPM anyway, I assume to control heat load on the inverter. There is also a switch where I can just disable inverter and run at 3600RPM, and the manual recommends doing so if I am going to pull more than 15A anyway.

My next move is to buy a Jackery type power station. I will run the generator a couple hours at a time - to run the fridge and charge the jackery, etc. Then shut down generator and live off the jackery for a while. Probably not a jackery brand, but not sure there official name - portable power station?

Anyway here are some loads I tested before my purchase. Yours might differ but this gives you an idea.

gas Furnace air handler - fan and controls start peak 16.53 A. Run 5.71 A

5 Cu foot freezer - start peak 2.4A, run 0.9A. == 0.9 x 120V = 108 Watts

Large fan - Peak Start 1.7A - Run 1.3 A on high = 156 Watts

Second large fan large – peak start 2we1.3A, medium

Small Fan – 0.5A at full speed. Peak about .9A = 60 watts running

6500 BTU portable A/C - startup 17.5A. Running - 8.85A max = 1062 watts.

 

[Donald]

Does the gas fireplace actually give off useable heat? Try running just it on one of your colder nights, shut off the heat pumps.

If it doesn't a wall mounted "monitor heater" is a great backup heat source that requires little or no electricity and they aren't terribly expensive.

What are your other essentials? Well water or city?

Your gas dealer may or may not want you to have a "permanent" installation to the tank. Keep that in mind choosing between portable, fixed portable, and fixed models.

We have a well.

The gas fireplace gives off decent heat with its fan running. It has the option of putting in 2 D cells in a battery holder and it will ignite without AC power. But less heat without its fan..

But hurricane season goes through the summer where the heat pump cooling is needed.

Have thought of getting a pickup bed camper for my pickup and if a major long term power outage to load wife and dog and drive to drive north to daughters or summer cottage in CT.

In NY they might get ice storms that would cause power failures in freezing weather. Not so much in DE.

 

[Jetronic]

I have an oil fired furnace that heats water. It requires very little electric to run, and it can actually run without the pump for the water.

But since I have a 600+ gallon tank of fuel, it makes sense to get a diesel gen, water cooled and hook it up to the radiator circuit. That way the otherwise wasted heat going into the coolant can be used to heat the house. 100°F water temp is plenty to keep the house warm. Around freezing outside means 2kWh worth of heat is enough to keep the house at 70°F.

So I would get a 5-8 kW diesel gen (inverter), it's overkill for all my needs, and I likely won't even need the furnace to run. My electric connection to the grid is about 9kW.

 

[Ranger83]

If you are looking at diesels, a lot of guys buy milsurp units, which ar extremely durable.

You can buy them off government auctions, but there are companies that buy them, check them out, and will install them. Example.

MEP003A 10kW Military Diesel Generator with a 90 day / 100 Hour Parts Warranty ⋆ Green Mountain Generators

NOTE: All of our generators come with a 90 day / 100 hour parts warranty (whichever comes first). NOTE: All generators ship by freight and require a custom quote. Please use our GMG contact form to inquire. Continuous Power Rating: 10 Kilowatt (kW), 60hz at 80% power factor below 5,000 feet...

greenmountaingenerators.com

 

[millerbl00]

My Champion generator is an invertor and puts out 220v. I have the transfer switch wired for 220v

 

[wag123]

IMO the most important advantage of an Inverter Generator is the much cleaner power output. A regular generator will have a THD (total harmonic distortion) of 5% or higher while an Inverter Generator will have a THD of around 0.5%. A lot of the things being powered by a regular generator are not going to like 5% THD, like electric motors (induction AC motors in particular), microwave ovens, LED light bulbs, UPS's, digital clocks, and anything with a power transformer. 5% THD is going to make many motors run hot and this can shorten their lives considerably.

 

[SC Maintenance]

IMO the most important advantage of an Inverter Generator is the much cleaner power output. A regular generator will have a THD (total harmonic distortion) of 5% or higher while an Inverter Generator will have a THD of around 0.5%. A lot of the things being powered by a regular generator are not going to like 5% THD, like electric motors (induction AC motors in particular), microwave ovens, LED light bulbs, UPS's, digital clocks, and anything with a power transformer. 5% THD is going to make many motors run hot and this can shorten their lives considerably.

THD of 5% is generally considered fine for AC appliances like a normal fridge, freezer, or blower fan. Maybe not a smart fridge - no idea what they require. Most AC motors can tolerate well over 5%, especially for a fairly short period, like a week or two.

Plenty parts of the national grid are above 5%. Its low averaged out, but there are pockets of the grid itself that exceed 5% regularly.

I do like my inverter generator, but clean power isn't really a concern. Now if I were trying to run a server farm or medical equipment, or do it over a long period, my opinion would differ.