Nasty Stuff in a new car

[toocrazy2yoo]

Well, I got this brand new 2005 Accent GT last week, and the coolant was deep deep deep green with a lot of residue around the cap and along the water line in the puke tank. Manual/dealer says use "quality" ethelene glycol to service it at, I think, 30 or 60K.

So, per the instructions here, I picked up 9 gallons of distilled water, drained the factory fill, filled with distilled, drained and filled, about 5 times, running the engine to flush the core and block between cycles. Took about 4 hours, what with cooldown time. Finally got all the green out. There was a lot of flakes, snotty-looking masses in the initial drain, and of course, scale in the puke tank which I removed from the car and scrubbed out with distilled water and a toothbrush.

I'm really glad I didn't let the stuff sit through whatever interval, 30 or 60K, the entire system woulda been a mess. To have all this stuff floating around in a new car with only 500 miles is really something. That's an awful brew they put in at the factory, and then the car sat around from April 05 until I bought it last week. You'd never know they put a 100,000 warranty on these things.

Oh, and just for the record, for MY fill, I used Zerex GO-5 Hybrid OAT low silicate (Gold bottle and coolant), 50/50 with distilled water. They claim it heals cavitation-damage to the water pump impeller better than the Dex-cool, which I swore by with my 92 Hyundai.

Thanks for your advice, yall, this thing will be the healthier for it!

[ March 02, 2006, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: toocrazy2yoo ]

 

[Ray H]

Ya done good. I left the original green stuff my Sonata came with for just under nine months. Mine wasn't quite as far gone as yours sounded like, but it was visibly turbid. I've had the SuperTech "dexcool" clone mixed 50/50 with distilled water in my Sonata since September 3, 2004 which makes it exactly a year and a half today. Still very clear blue-green in both radiator and puke tank. Very satisfied with the stuff - including the $6.88/gallon price. I don't believe you'll have any problems with the G-05, either. Mercedes has used their own G-05 iteration in all their vehicles from the factory for over two decades. BMW "blue" is a G-05, too. Maybe the stuff Hyundai uses is OK, but, like you, its appearance degradation so soon didn't engender any sense of confidence for me, either. Your reference to "snotty-looking masses" strongly suggests to me unstable silicate reactions that gelled out of solution. (With additional time, hard silicate precipitates will form which can be devestating to waterpump seals.) That makes me question the quality of the diluent water at the plant.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Hey Ray!

quote:

---

---

(With additional time, hard silicate precipitates will form which can be devestating to waterpump seals.)

WILL form? Or WOULD have formed? Don't tell me my pump is doomed even with the G)5!

Kidding, I think you mean would have. I guess they figure, screw it, it goes 100,000 to get em past the warranty (sewer water might do that, I suppose) and if it fails at mile 100,001, so much the better, right?

Thanks, all!

 

[Ray H]

Like I said, "Ya done good.", so relax - your waterpump's seals and impeller are in good hands with G-05. The reduced silicate content of G-05 is much easier to maintian in solution - well past the rated changeout interval, at that (although I'm not suggesting anyone go a full five years with any brand automobile/light truck antifreeze...). I was talking about the traditional heavily silicated syrups used as factory fill five or six years ago and longer, and common aftermarket brands - most of which are reformulated to reduced silicate levels (G-05 in its various brand iterations) or entirely devoid of silicate content ("DEX-COOL" and its unlicensed clones, for instance).

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

ok, so silicate is bad in excess. What is it's benefit in moderation?.

Also, if phosphate helps "heal" the anti-corrosive layer after particulate "strikes" and cavitation damage on water pump impellers, why no phosphate in G-05?

Now, is cavitation within the water pump a normal part of the operation of the engine, like say, the opening of the bypass on an oil filter at high RPM? Or is cavitation set up as a condition by failures in maintenance, coolant, or even the design of the cooling system in general?

Understand, Ray, I'm not challenging you on any of this, I'm clueless until recently. I've learned just enough from all this to ask the questions, I suppose. Thanks!

 

[Ray H]

INSTANT corrosion protection. OAT can take several thousand miles of driving to fully establish a corrosion barrier on bare metal. The major Japanese coolants achieve much the same effect through the use of phosphates along with OAT. (No challenge taken.

)

Cavitation is a strange, but entirely natural phenomenon. The periphery of the impeller blades reach near supersonic speeds and the pressure exerted on the coolant result in micro-steam bubbles "exploding" into existence and impacting with the metal. Cavitation caused by highspeed rotary screws in liquids is not so much "normal" as "unavoidable", nor does the process have anything to do with maintenance failures. This can happen at cold liquid temperatures as readily as hot coolant temperatures. Ships' screws in service for long periods show surface pitting from cavitation. Sonar operators aboard attack submarines have screw cavitation signatures of other nations' surface ships and submersibles down to such an exact science that they can discriminate friend from foe without visual identification. In engines, another source of coolant cavitation effects is the vibration induced in wet cylinder liners from combustion shock. If left unattended, this type of cavitation erosion can eventually result in liner fracture. It's no accident many heavy-duty diesel engine manufacturers specifiy G-05 as the coolant of choice because of its ability to nearly instantly repair ruptures in the OAT coating of coolant exposed metal surfaces with its silicate content. Like you, I've had excellent real-world results with DEX-COOL - previously in my '96 Honda Accord, and now in my '03 Hyundai Sonata. The technology is sound, and works in a well-maintained system But, now, if forced to choose, I believe G-05 has the edge - if for no other reason than it tolerates air in the system better than DEX-COOL. IMHO

Ford, Chrysler, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Volvo, Cummins, Navistar, Mack, Caterpillar - some of those manufacturers represent some pretty pricey and/or exotic machinery. They all specifiy G-05.

(I know I must sound like a paid schill for Zerex G-05. Phhhh - I could only wish.)

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Funny you mention the screws on ships..I did 5 years aboard Nimitz (airdale, not blackshoe), and had occasion to go up to Newport News Shipbuilding to see Nimitz up on blocks in the drydock. Her screws were badly pitted after only two cruises (although, to be fair to 4 solid brass props thirty feet across, they probably did over 200000 miles on those two cruises). if I recall, they only turn a few hundred RPM. Does the water pump turn at actual RPM of the engine? I would have thought there would be some reduction via the pully the belt rides to power the pump?

Out of curiosity, any idea what the flow in GPM is for, I dunno, one of our Hyundai's? My GT redlines (pointlessly, peak torque occurs at 3000 RPM) at nearly 7000 RPM. I can't imagine what must be going on in there if they spin the water punp at actual engine RPM.

BTW, how do you know all this?? Pretty graphic descriptions, are you an engineer, Ray? As you might have perceived, I'm a complete layman. An advanced end-user and tinkerer, nothing more. Nonetheless, there ain't much to fascinate the tinkerer after 6 years in working on ejection seats, pitching flight decks and fast airplanes that land hard and break into many pieces at times
Thanks!.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Funny you mention the screws on ships..I did 5 years aboard Nimitz (airdale, not blackshoe), and had occasion to go up to Newport News Shipbuilding to see Nimitz up on blocks in the drydock. Her screws were badly pitted after only two cruises (although, to be fair to 4 solid brass props thirty feet across, they probably did over 200000 miles on those two cruises). if I recall, they only turn a few hundred RPM. Does the water pump turn at actual RPM of the engine? I would have thought there would be some reduction via the pully the belt rides to power the pump?

Out of curiosity, any idea what the flow in GPM is for, I dunno, one of our Hyundai's? My GT redlines (pointlessly, peak torque occurs at 3000 RPM) at nearly 7000 RPM. I can't imagine what must be going on in there if they spin the water punp at actual engine RPM.

BTW, how do you know all this?? Pretty graphic descriptions, are you an engineer, Ray? As you might have perceived, I'm a complete layman. An advanced end-user and tinkerer, nothing more. Nonetheless, there ain't much to fascinate the tinkerer after 6 years in working on ejection seats, pitching flight decks and fast airplanes that land hard and break into many pieces at times
Thanks!.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

 

[Ray H]

Complete layman who reads a lot, understands some, and is believed by few... I dug out my shop manual for my Sonata and looked at the pulley/belt diagram depicting the size relationships of the waterpump pulley and the crankshaft pulley. If the depiction is anywhere close to accurate, the crankshaft pulley appears to be no more than half the diameter of the waterpump pulley on the 2.7L V6. That would indicate that the waterpump turns at roughly one-half crankshaft speed. Are the Nimitz screws really brass? I woulda thunk bronze, but...

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Really! They're very brassy looking. Are all propellors that are brassy Monel? Or are some really brass?

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

They looked like brass to me through the water on a sunny day. Extremely tarnished out of the water. They're huge, I know that. Maybe they're ome alloy or another, but they're a gold color in the water..

 

[Kestas]

They're made of Monel metal. 60-40 Cu-Ni (or maybe 40-60?, I'm working from memory)