I fully beleive ,that if a F1 team got dropped into Mooresville and a top - flight NASCAR team went to Europe , within half a season both would be at the same status of the sport that they had left. Just because NASCAR can't do a lot of the things that F1 does , doesn't mean they don't know about them. With the rule book opened up, the F1 scene would change a bunch once Chad Knaus wrapped his brain around the rulebook! JMHO, YMMV et.al.
NASCAR banned OHC motors back in the 60's??
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
I don't agree...well not with the half a season, and the lifetime of knowledge of the other part.
I do agree that if they'd each had the other's career paths open to them, they could be great in either.
This. Few remember that Penske tried to do F1 and while not a backmarker, could never compete with McLaren, JPS Lotus, Ferrari and Williams.
Mercedes / Erebus and Nissan both entered V8 Supercars this season and only Nissan got a win, and that was by luck. Holden and sometimes Ford still dominate that series.
Toyota with all their engineering might could never win a F1 race.
The only real time I have seen a team jump from one series to another and win out of the box would be Penske and Ganassi going to IRL and running the Indy 500 while they still had their Champ Car programs.
I don't agree...well not with the half a season, and the lifetime of knowledge of the other part.
I do agree that if they'd each had the other's career paths open to them, they could be great in either.
This. Few remember that Penske tried to do F1 and while not a backmarker, could never compete with McLaren, JPS Lotus, Ferrari and Williams.
Mercedes / Erebus and Nissan both entered V8 Supercars this season and only Nissan got a win, and that was by luck. Holden and sometimes Ford still dominate that series.
Toyota with all their engineering might could never win a F1 race.
The only real time I have seen a team jump from one series to another and win out of the box would be Penske and Ganassi going to IRL and running the Indy 500 while they still had their Champ Car programs.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I don't agree...well not with the half a season, and the lifetime of knowledge of the other part.
Absolutely. Look at McLaren, Williams, and Sauber. Those are some pretty high end F1 pedigrees with some pretty low end results this year.
I don't agree...well not with the half a season, and the lifetime of knowledge of the other part.
Absolutely. Look at McLaren, Williams, and Sauber. Those are some pretty high end F1 pedigrees with some pretty low end results this year.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: KenO
stupid Americans
Whoa guys, we have a genius here!!!
Lead us to the promise land oh wise one!!!
But seriously, go [censored] yourself.
amen!
also being able to retard advance intake and exhaust valves independently is an advantage but one isn't newer tech than the other. they are just different. also think of the big chain flying around at 8500rpm uggg. makes me cringe.
But the funny part is that the highest RPM engines are also usually OHC
So that big chain or chains flying around in practice doesn't seem to be much of an issue
And yes, OHC really isn't much if any newer than OHV, but the ability to independently manipulate cam timing independently for intake/exhaust is a technological advantage currently not available in the OHV realm, which was the point I was making.
I agree, however we need to look at it in perspective. An ohc engine wouldn't improve the quality of racing. And would cost ALOT of money which to the littler teams would be a huge hit. Everything would have to be re engineered to change the engine completely. The engine bay, which means the car itself, the transmission most likely. Computer related, different tools for the new engine. New training for the guys who do all the behind the scenes work to make the engine run. I don't think people an obviously NASCAR are stupid Americans because we understand this drastic of a change wouldn't have much if any effect on the quality of racing. It would only effect the teams pocket book.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: KenO
stupid Americans
Whoa guys, we have a genius here!!!
Lead us to the promise land oh wise one!!!
But seriously, go [censored] yourself.
amen!
also being able to retard advance intake and exhaust valves independently is an advantage but one isn't newer tech than the other. they are just different. also think of the big chain flying around at 8500rpm uggg. makes me cringe.
But the funny part is that the highest RPM engines are also usually OHC
And yes, OHC really isn't much if any newer than OHV, but the ability to independently manipulate cam timing independently for intake/exhaust is a technological advantage currently not available in the OHV realm, which was the point I was making.
I agree, however we need to look at it in perspective. An ohc engine wouldn't improve the quality of racing. And would cost ALOT of money which to the littler teams would be a huge hit. Everything would have to be re engineered to change the engine completely. The engine bay, which means the car itself, the transmission most likely. Computer related, different tools for the new engine. New training for the guys who do all the behind the scenes work to make the engine run. I don't think people an obviously NASCAR are stupid Americans because we understand this drastic of a change wouldn't have much if any effect on the quality of racing. It would only effect the teams pocket book.
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Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: ram_man
also ratings are down because the same guy keeps winning. jimmie Johnson has dominated since the chase began and that's why ratings are down. ratings around 10yrs ago were pretty good.
Interesting. I blame the chase format, not the 48 team. Even if the 48 wasn't winning, I think ratings would be down.
I don't blame him for winning but it does get very old seeing the same thing. Although I think they should have different races in the chase every year. Right now you can limp your way in and be really good at all or most of the last ten tracks and your golden.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
also ratings are down because the same guy keeps winning. jimmie Johnson has dominated since the chase began and that's why ratings are down. ratings around 10yrs ago were pretty good.
Interesting. I blame the chase format, not the 48 team. Even if the 48 wasn't winning, I think ratings would be down.
I don't blame him for winning but it does get very old seeing the same thing. Although I think they should have different races in the chase every year. Right now you can limp your way in and be really good at all or most of the last ten tracks and your golden.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: ram_man
I agree, however we need to look at it in perspective. An ohc engine wouldn't improve the quality of racing. And would cost ALOT of money which to the littler teams would be a huge hit. Everything would have to be re engineered to change the engine completely. The engine bay, which means the car itself, the transmission most likely. Computer related, different tools for the new engine. New training for the guys who do all the behind the scenes work to make the engine run. I don't think people an obviously NASCAR are stupid Americans because we understand this drastic of a change wouldn't have much if any effect on the quality of racing. It would only effect the teams pocket book.
Given the restrictor plates and how everything is governed I agree, it would be a lot of extra expense for what what amount to, for the sake of this discussion, zero real gain.
The argument could be made that then they would again sort of reflect what is found in production cars, but they have been so far from production cars for so long it really would mean nothing.
I agree, however we need to look at it in perspective. An ohc engine wouldn't improve the quality of racing. And would cost ALOT of money which to the littler teams would be a huge hit. Everything would have to be re engineered to change the engine completely. The engine bay, which means the car itself, the transmission most likely. Computer related, different tools for the new engine. New training for the guys who do all the behind the scenes work to make the engine run. I don't think people an obviously NASCAR are stupid Americans because we understand this drastic of a change wouldn't have much if any effect on the quality of racing. It would only effect the teams pocket book.
Given the restrictor plates and how everything is governed I agree, it would be a lot of extra expense for what what amount to, for the sake of this discussion, zero real gain.
The argument could be made that then they would again sort of reflect what is found in production cars, but they have been so far from production cars for so long it really would mean nothing.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ram_man
what you guys are missing is that ohv isn't any less advanced than an ohc. its just different.
Being able to advance/retard the intake exhaust timing independent of one another is the first thing that springs to mind when thinking of an advancement OHC has over OHV.
Agreed.
Not to mention less drag and less moving parts to actuate the valves themselves.
And the intake ports aren't restricted by the pushrod tube running through it,allowing for more airflow.
A cam in head engine is able to rev better,and higher. Add to that as overkill mentioned variable valve timing and include sophisticated engine management and you've got a completely different animal than a pushrod motor.
But cam in head engines tend to make less low rpm torque and are a much bigger,and heavier package,so yes there's a trade off.
I swore off pushrods once I got my head wrapped around ford modulars and understood them however the hemi went and caused me to rethink that decision.
Other than the Ford tunnel port engines of the late '60s name another engine that the pushrod intersects through the intake or exhaust... It's surely not anything in NASCAR...
The OHC revving better because of design is total [censored], a OHV engine can perform just as well... NASCAR's 800Hp @ 8800 RPM OHV engines aren't exactly asthmatic...
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ram_man
what you guys are missing is that ohv isn't any less advanced than an ohc. its just different.
Being able to advance/retard the intake exhaust timing independent of one another is the first thing that springs to mind when thinking of an advancement OHC has over OHV.
Agreed.
Not to mention less drag and less moving parts to actuate the valves themselves.
And the intake ports aren't restricted by the pushrod tube running through it,allowing for more airflow.
A cam in head engine is able to rev better,and higher. Add to that as overkill mentioned variable valve timing and include sophisticated engine management and you've got a completely different animal than a pushrod motor.
But cam in head engines tend to make less low rpm torque and are a much bigger,and heavier package,so yes there's a trade off.
I swore off pushrods once I got my head wrapped around ford modulars and understood them however the hemi went and caused me to rethink that decision.
Other than the Ford tunnel port engines of the late '60s name another engine that the pushrod intersects through the intake or exhaust... It's surely not anything in NASCAR...
The OHC revving better because of design is total [censored], a OHV engine can perform just as well... NASCAR's 800Hp @ 8800 RPM OHV engines aren't exactly asthmatic...
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ram_man
I agree, however we need to look at it in perspective. An ohc engine wouldn't improve the quality of racing. And would cost ALOT of money which to the littler teams would be a huge hit. Everything would have to be re engineered to change the engine completely. The engine bay, which means the car itself, the transmission most likely. Computer related, different tools for the new engine. New training for the guys who do all the behind the scenes work to make the engine run. I don't think people an obviously NASCAR are stupid Americans because we understand this drastic of a change wouldn't have much if any effect on the quality of racing. It would only effect the teams pocket book.
Given the restrictor plates and how everything is governed I agree, it would be a lot of extra expense for what what amount to, for the sake of this discussion, zero real gain.
The argument could be made that then they would again sort of reflect what is found in production cars, but they have been so far from production cars for so long it really would mean nothing.
I agree maybe when they come out with the next generation car whenever that may be they will entertain the idea. NASCAR is pretty decent about listening to fans. But fans aren't unhappy with the engine package now so I do not see it changing anytime soon. I like pushrod engines for a lot of reasons. But both cars I own have ohc and do just fine, my conclusion both work well in function. But on paper ohc looks better. I remember several years ago reading about how the jeeps suspension on paper looked awful but in the real world it worked great at what it was intended for. I feel like pushrod engines are kind of like that.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
I agree, however we need to look at it in perspective. An ohc engine wouldn't improve the quality of racing. And would cost ALOT of money which to the littler teams would be a huge hit. Everything would have to be re engineered to change the engine completely. The engine bay, which means the car itself, the transmission most likely. Computer related, different tools for the new engine. New training for the guys who do all the behind the scenes work to make the engine run. I don't think people an obviously NASCAR are stupid Americans because we understand this drastic of a change wouldn't have much if any effect on the quality of racing. It would only effect the teams pocket book.
Given the restrictor plates and how everything is governed I agree, it would be a lot of extra expense for what what amount to, for the sake of this discussion, zero real gain.
The argument could be made that then they would again sort of reflect what is found in production cars, but they have been so far from production cars for so long it really would mean nothing.
I agree maybe when they come out with the next generation car whenever that may be they will entertain the idea. NASCAR is pretty decent about listening to fans. But fans aren't unhappy with the engine package now so I do not see it changing anytime soon. I like pushrod engines for a lot of reasons. But both cars I own have ohc and do just fine, my conclusion both work well in function. But on paper ohc looks better. I remember several years ago reading about how the jeeps suspension on paper looked awful but in the real world it worked great at what it was intended for. I feel like pushrod engines are kind of like that.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
NASCAR is pretty decent about listening to fans. But fans aren't unhappy with the engine package now so I do not see it changing anytime soon....
They didn't listen very much about 6 or 7 years ago when Toyota came in.
Sorry fans, we already cashed the check. Sorry Jack Roush, I know you hate it but Joe Gibbs doesn't seem to be "withering" away from the brand.
NASCAR is pretty decent about listening to fans. But fans aren't unhappy with the engine package now so I do not see it changing anytime soon....
They didn't listen very much about 6 or 7 years ago when Toyota came in.
Sorry fans, we already cashed the check. Sorry Jack Roush, I know you hate it but Joe Gibbs doesn't seem to be "withering" away from the brand.
I see so many [censored] about the 48 car always winning but in his defense this is his first championship in three years, I don't think many of of the real fans are complaining all that badly... Keselowski(GO Ski!) won last year driving a Dodge and Tony Stewart in 2011 with his Chev...
Plain and simple the economy was the BIGGEST reason for declining attendance, plus every motel within a 75mi radius of the tracks see nothing but $$$ so jack up prices 3x... That leaves the guy that used to regularly attend three or four races a year lucky to make one...
Plain and simple the economy was the BIGGEST reason for declining attendance, plus every motel within a 75mi radius of the tracks see nothing but $$$ so jack up prices 3x... That leaves the guy that used to regularly attend three or four races a year lucky to make one...
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
The thought of a 8ft chain like used on the 427 SOHC is kinda scary. Luckily the use of chains on dedicated OHC racing engines has fallen by the wayside in favor of gear drive setups.
Chains tend to not do well over 15,000RPM just like valve springs.
It makes me wonder how did they survive the 6-71 blown nitro treatment back in the mid-late 60s Top Fuel and Funny cars, even though that was just for 7 seconds and what, 9000 revs tops?
The thought of a 8ft chain like used on the 427 SOHC is kinda scary. Luckily the use of chains on dedicated OHC racing engines has fallen by the wayside in favor of gear drive setups.
Chains tend to not do well over 15,000RPM just like valve springs.
It makes me wonder how did they survive the 6-71 blown nitro treatment back in the mid-late 60s Top Fuel and Funny cars, even though that was just for 7 seconds and what, 9000 revs tops?
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: ram_man
NASCAR is pretty decent about listening to fans. But fans aren't unhappy with the engine package now so I do not see it changing anytime soon....
They didn't listen very much about 6 or 7 years ago when Toyota came in.
Sorry fans, we already cashed the check.
Yes, 'Piggy Boy' Helton, et al just could not resist those Camry/Corolla profit trillion$$ when it came right on down to it, and used ANY/ALL justifications possible to qualify that position.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
NASCAR is pretty decent about listening to fans. But fans aren't unhappy with the engine package now so I do not see it changing anytime soon....
They didn't listen very much about 6 or 7 years ago when Toyota came in.
Sorry fans, we already cashed the check.
Yes, 'Piggy Boy' Helton, et al just could not resist those Camry/Corolla profit trillion$$ when it came right on down to it, and used ANY/ALL justifications possible to qualify that position.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
The thought of a 8ft chain like used on the 427 SOHC is kinda scary. Luckily the use of chains on dedicated OHC racing engines has fallen by the wayside in favor of gear drive setups.
Chains tend to not do well over 15,000RPM just like valve springs.
It makes me wonder how did they survive the 6-71 blown nitro treatment back in the mid-late 60s Top Fuel and Funny cars, even though that was just for 7 seconds and what, 9000 revs tops?
Maybe they used the Robinson gear drive?
Though I must say that the chain looks pretty sturdy:
We never had any problem with ours in the T-Bird from what I was told
Always thought the belt setup was neat though:
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
The thought of a 8ft chain like used on the 427 SOHC is kinda scary. Luckily the use of chains on dedicated OHC racing engines has fallen by the wayside in favor of gear drive setups.
Chains tend to not do well over 15,000RPM just like valve springs.
It makes me wonder how did they survive the 6-71 blown nitro treatment back in the mid-late 60s Top Fuel and Funny cars, even though that was just for 7 seconds and what, 9000 revs tops?
Maybe they used the Robinson gear drive?
Though I must say that the chain looks pretty sturdy:
We never had any problem with ours in the T-Bird from what I was told
Always thought the belt setup was neat though:
The chains in the new Ford mod motors are probably just as long, as well as your S62 is a single chain to both left and right banks. Nothing wrong with long chains, and the S62 revs to 7k stock, I've seen some raising the rev limiter to 7500-7600. Turner was running it in their Grand Am cars, I'm going to ask around and see how high they were revving them. I'd guess 8k or higher.
Originally Posted By: TFB1
The OHC revving better because of design is total [censored], a OHV engine can perform just as well... NASCAR's 800Hp @ 8800 RPM OHV engines aren't exactly asthmatic...
Au contraire, mon frere! OHC engines will rev higher because they have higher valvetrain stiffness. It's a mathematical certainty based on shorter load paths and less mass to control. Yes, it's a marvelous thing that NASCAR engine builders have done to allow their valvetrains to get to 9500 rpm, and be able to survive 500 mile races. But look at F1 engines: 146 cubic inches, 750 HP @ 18,000 rpm. They would be able to go higher by now if the FIA hadn't put the 18,000 rpm rev limit on them. Cosworth's CA was running 20,000 rpm in the races before the rev limit was enacted.
Tell me about pushrod engines that can run 18,000 rpm.
The OHC revving better because of design is total [censored], a OHV engine can perform just as well... NASCAR's 800Hp @ 8800 RPM OHV engines aren't exactly asthmatic...
Au contraire, mon frere! OHC engines will rev higher because they have higher valvetrain stiffness. It's a mathematical certainty based on shorter load paths and less mass to control. Yes, it's a marvelous thing that NASCAR engine builders have done to allow their valvetrains to get to 9500 rpm, and be able to survive 500 mile races. But look at F1 engines: 146 cubic inches, 750 HP @ 18,000 rpm. They would be able to go higher by now if the FIA hadn't put the 18,000 rpm rev limit on them. Cosworth's CA was running 20,000 rpm in the races before the rev limit was enacted.
Tell me about pushrod engines that can run 18,000 rpm.
YES, but their (F1 engines') pneumatic valvetrains also help with those stratospheric rev limits.
Pneumatic valve springs help with high speed dynamics by eliminating coil surge, and would be a big help to pushrod engines if somebody would apply them, but the problems of higher mass and lower stiffness would still be there. At the end of CART's 2.65-liter V8 turbo era, Honda's engine was running 16,000 rpm with steel valve springs. Those kind of speeds have never been attained with pushrod valve trains. The Ilmor 500I 3.4L V8 turbo that won the 1994 Indy 500 is the best example I know of a pushrod valve train that ran to high speeds for extended periods, and it only ran 10,000 rpm.
Who knows of pushrod engines that can run significantly over 10,000 rpm?
Who knows of pushrod engines that can run significantly over 10,000 rpm?
^^^Yes, I was not saying pneumatic springs are the ONLY thing that allowed for insane revs (or MUCH MUCH higher than ANY/ALL OHV/pushrods), just that they allow the unbelievable 20K++ revs that some of these exotic powerplants achieve reliably.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Pneumatic valve springs help with high speed dynamics by eliminating coil surge, and would be a big help to pushrod engines if somebody would apply them, but the problems of higher mass and lower stiffness would still be there. At the end of CART's 2.65-liter V8 turbo era, Honda's engine was running 16,000 rpm with steel valve springs. Those kind of speeds have never been attained with pushrod valve trains. The Ilmor 500I 3.4L V8 turbo that won the 1994 Indy 500 is the best example I know of a pushrod valve train that ran to high speeds for extended periods, and it only ran 10,000 rpm.
Who knows of pushrod engines that can run significantly over 10,000 rpm?
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the Mercedes Ilmor pushrod engine a work around to the rule that allowed higher boost for "stock block" engines in USAC sanctioned races?
Pneumatic valve springs help with high speed dynamics by eliminating coil surge, and would be a big help to pushrod engines if somebody would apply them, but the problems of higher mass and lower stiffness would still be there. At the end of CART's 2.65-liter V8 turbo era, Honda's engine was running 16,000 rpm with steel valve springs. Those kind of speeds have never been attained with pushrod valve trains. The Ilmor 500I 3.4L V8 turbo that won the 1994 Indy 500 is the best example I know of a pushrod valve train that ran to high speeds for extended periods, and it only ran 10,000 rpm.
Who knows of pushrod engines that can run significantly over 10,000 rpm?
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the Mercedes Ilmor pushrod engine a work around to the rule that allowed higher boost for "stock block" engines in USAC sanctioned races?
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